A lot of people here interpreting "willing" as "I'm so happy to betray and murder my kin! Res me now!" ... which obviously isn't the case. Instead, these are probably souls who died with their souls filled with malice and a desire for revenge, clouding their ability to resist and see the truth of who they were until they're raised. How many quests do we have of souls of the dead / slain wandering around stuck in the final moment of their death, or just straight up consumed by hatred by the injustice of it. It's clear from Sylvanas herself that the process of seeing the other side of death, being raised and bound to your corpse, etc. has a trans-formative effect on your outlook in some cases.
I see some implications what we & the val'kyr consider 'willingly' are different, Brynja's Beacon toy says the powerful of them can dominate the will of the risen so the ones they raise are under they're control (probably only in the beginning), NE who are being raised probably can escape that control by turning into a wisp (wisp are more of a type of natural undead and NE have a special bond with nature) and cannot be controlled by val'kyr anymore.Also and this is pure speculation of mine, some NE would consider turning undead so they can feign allegiance to sylvanas so when the time is there, they can strike Sylvanas down, making her lose al her val'kyr or send info to the Alliance.After all we know the saying: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.This also gives room for later expansions for a new Ranger or Dark Ranger class.
The alliance here don't want to believe that a select few risen would accept it as much as the horde in early Sylvanas post don't want to believe that the horde races other than forsaken (tauren in particular) would go along with blighting civilians and burning down the world tree. If this is the dark side of the alliance then, I still don't know what you all are complaining about. The Horde has been hit with the villain bat since the launch of BfA and now a few Night Elves that were brought back from the dead decided not to rot away on the beach and you guys are throwing a tantrum. Let's wait and see how it plays out on live. I'm sure they'll change this more after all this whining so my Horde toon is going to have to rez dead hippies for an hour and a half before the quest is completed.....
After Azshara raid and these choose side quests ( sylv and saurfang)... Last raid involves same different bosses for alliance and horde... Sylvanas for alliance and Malfurion / Tyrande for the horde. THAT WOULD BE SO AWESOME
Still garbage. This quest line was what made me quit for good, the last straw.
Personally, I would have had the *attempt* to raise Night Elves into Undeath but find that it always fails - either the Night Elves become Angry Wisps or they become the shrimp-things or banshees as it turns out (dun dun duuunnnn) there is a unique relationship between the Night Elves and Elune/Nature that simply prevents that kind of turning. Only the Lich King was powerful enough to wrench Night Elves into Undeath.This would end up setting up two lore-beats:1. exploring, or even tying Night Elves in to the realm of Nature - basically making them the thematic counterpoint to the Forsaken. That would explain how Night Elves diverge so drastically from their Troll ancestors - because their forms were evolved into denizens of Nature (ie: Night Elves look like humanized Dryads/Keepers and not that Dryads/Keepers have Night Elf features). So Nature itself already has a prior claim on the Night Elves and *that* blocks the raising of Night Elves as Forsaken.2. Sylvanas' now has to "power up" or otherwise wrest from the Lich King himself the ability to make Night Elf Forsaken, and in the process, abandon the element of free will in accepting undeath.I still don't get the "free will" part. There is never any free will in becoming Undead, only free will in accepting the condition. In Vanilla, the free will was in wresting your consciousness from the Lich King's mindless scourge. Currently, it's in accepting one's state as being Forsaken - a condition inflicted upon you by Sylvanas' forces. You were literally just some human the Forsaken dug up and brought back to life. It's only AFTER you were made Forsaken that you are given the choice of staying that way or being "re-killed" but at that point the damage is done. From what the lore implies, once you're undead, you don't go to the happy-place dead people go, you go to the creepy, nasty place Arthas and Sylvanas will end up. So OF COURSE you're not going to want to die again, because you've already been denied your proper rest.This is why I am not a fan of the Cata revamp. The original Forsaken are sympathetic - victims of the Lich King, brought into mindless undeath but breaking free and trying to make sense of what was done to them. Now it's Stockholm syndrome.
Is it so hard to imagine that a race of people that were immortal for so long, suddenly experience death and jump at the chance of living again? It's hard for most of us to accept death and we send our whole lives knowing it's inevitable. The fear of death and the potentially actually feeling of an afterlife might be terrifying beyond belief and could very well lead someone to choose siding with their enemy as long as they can give them something they desperately crave or downright need, which here is life.It would be far from the first time, irl and in game, that someone was offered something by an enemy and ended up siding with their enemy taking up arms against former friends and comrades. I'd say that being given back your life would be a pretty generous gift when you're currently experiencing a pretty intense change in your current living situation. It really comes across, not that you understand the lore and have better ideas than blizzard, but that you have this elitist mentality that your favored race is unable to be anything but absolutely 100% pure, no matter what they experience. This really isn't a farfetched thing that's happening. Evil, selfishness, doubt, depression, loss, these are just a small handful of things that are not specific to any one race, irl or in game. Anyone can feel these things and quite frankly, some of those things are easy to manipulate.I'm not getting into Sylvanas debate, but we can say by the update that she isn't mind controlling them, however I would definitely say that a lot of forsaken are being controlled. Not by magic or anything but by literal psychology. Almost everyone knows someone who has been in an abusive relationship. These people sexually and physically abused and stay around. Why? Fear is a part yeah, but the larger part is that they are in a deep depression, experiencing self doubt and failure. To that end, said person doesn't even imagine leaving because to them, it's the best that they can have, they don't see a better scenario because they simply can't. Some said here that they may feel abandoned by Tyrande and Elune which is entirely feasible. When they are freshly reanimated, is it so hard to imagine that while not directly mind controlled, the resurrector would certainly use their emotions to break them down into thinking this is the best case scenario? I mean c'mon, this is practically what military training is for, to break down the individuals mind and rebuild it into thinking a certain way. It's not control, but it gets you in line.The simple point, if nothing else, is that you're assuming everyone thinks the exact same way. That the NE's are a hive mind and not one of them has independent and free thought. They can and they will, come to different conclusions about the same situation and they can and will choose different routes to handle the situation they're in.
Simply not accurate.Sylvanas was a High Elf, and Illidan was a Night Elf. Did they refuse change?
Absolutely disgusting. This writing just keeps getting more and more unbearably stupid.
A lot of arguments people keep bringing up don't work, so here's why (miscellaneous comment, so pick out parts that apply to your views and ignore the rest :P):'But the Blood Elves and the Illidari turned against their people too, see, night elves can join other factions and turn on their people.'The High Elves didn't turn on the night elves, they were exiled - either stay with their society and abandon the magics that their corrupt elite used before their empire was destroyed, or keep using their magic and die for being a threat to the kaldorei, or leave. They were rejected by their people - whether with good reason or not - and looked for a place to live their way, didn't suddenly join Sargeras and start murdering night elves. The Illidari also didn't try to eradicate their race out of spite, simply used the tools of the Legion to bring down the enemy at all costs, no matter the sacrifice. The Nightbourne were also rejected by the nelfs first, so it's not the case of happily slaughtering people who try to avenge you and other heroes who died for their survival.'But they felt forsaken and abandoned so they lash out at the people who failed them.'Tyrande upon seeing the raised nelfs calls them sisters, doesn't reject them but would gladly accept them at her side, so their reception upon undeath was nothing like the rejection that Lillian faced from her Scarlet Crusade family (she tried to rejoin them even after she was all emo about being undead, she only turned on them after they rejected and tried to kill her). The leader of the Alliance - who already accepted shady people like nelf and other DKs, void-corrupted elves and the long-time-schemer Dark Irons - even started an event for Human-Forsaken reuinion specifically, so they were neither abandoned nor forsaken nor rejected which is a big part of the 'rationalization' of most Forsaken (even edgelord Blightcaller explains that they hunted him, so he started hunting them, not 'I woke up and immediately knew that the Scourge was right and humanity needs to be eradicated for failing me.')'But Elune though'When has any diety ever prevented any disaster that befell their race? She (or any other diety) never directly interfered in the Sundering, the War of the Shifting Sands, the corruption of Vordrassil, the Legion attack on Nordrassil, the destruction of Auberdine in the Cataclysm, the corruption of Shaladrassil, etc... Elune did offer solace to Ysera's soul, and reduced the pain of the burning elves on Teldrassil. But not being able to directly intervene doesn't mean that she's responsible for it. Let's kill all doctors because they can't save shooting victims? And as others already pointed out, sure a religious person could become an athesist and reject their congregation after a tragedy, but wouldn't join up with with the aggressors and wage war on their own country or people.'Their race was immortal before, they might simply want to live, they're not faultless angels'Individual night elves may want immortality at all cost, sure, but these are specifically night elves who laid down their lives in defense of others, the best of the best, who didn't flee even when their defenses started to crumble, who stayed on the front line even without the guidance of their leaders, because they didn't value their life or anything more than the safety of their lands and people. Besides, if they simply wanted to live, they could have accepted resurrection and not joined the Horde, just like Godfrey and the other Gildean nobles, or Redpath who organizes an undead resistance in the Forsaken starting zone after being resurrected.'They can have individual thoughts and motivations, they can have their reasons after being dead, they don't have to do what a nelf would do'The problem is that they don't follow nelf OR undead patterns. So far raised undead were either mindlessly converted (and apparently Blizz would like to pretend that's not the case), rejected or hunted by their own people (Lillian, Nathanos, and most Forsaken who feel they have no place except the Horde), or had some other elaborate 'justification' for acting that way (Godfrey & Co., joining the Forsaken who are the enemies of the Worgen who they hated, but then turning on Sylvanas anyway), and then there are people like the Desolate Council or Alonsus who never quite bought the Forsaken drama.Blizz even drew clear visual parallels between Delaryn and Sylvanas in the cinematic as well as thematically: their leaders didn't save them (Anasterion failed and Kael'thas wasn't there the same way Mafurion failed and Tyrande wasn't there), they saw destruction, they cried, they lost hope, they were raised in undeath... and even Sylvanas who considered her old self a fool and thinks hope is a disease and that death is the answer did not follow Arthas willingly, did not have a grudge against the blood elf survivors (as her advocation for her race in TBC and her banter with Lor'themar make clear), did not want to kill Kael'thas for not being there for his people when they needed him most, and did not join the Scourge to destroy and take over Quel'thalas. If they try to keep the 'I had my reasons' not mindcontrol, some genuinely choose so angle, Blizz would need some spectacular justification to rationalize the very paragons of nelfs acting so spectacularly contrary to any nelf or undead precedent. They'd need extra solid and clear reasons to sell that people who were far better than Sylvanas (she thought of her rangers as arrows in her quiver, being more ruthless and selfish even in life), facing either the same fate as her (still with more kindness as Sylvanas never felt pity for Arthas when he stood over her, but Delaryn did), or a far less rejected fate then other Forsaken (Sira and Delaryn were met with 'sisters' not 'Aaaaa a zombie, kill it') would forgive their murderers and rise more selfishly, more ruthlessly, with more hate and far more edginess than the Edge-Queen, destroyer of hope, death rawr emo Warchief herself :P What they're presenting here - not to mention retcons like Valkyr not being able to raise other races than vrykul and human - is simply forcing something for the plot because 'we needed to increase the edge on 8.1. by 20% and aren't willing nelf undead Horde troops brilliant, just because, we really felt like it! Fans are discussing our game too, so brilliant writing just like the prepatch' or something :P
If you will look to this thread you will see 238 comments.So Blizzard will count the story with traitors Undead NE as success. Even knowing that many of NE fans hates Blizzard thinking that Blizzard hates them, and some of them like me will leave the game, Blizzard still will count that as success, because of such big hype.
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