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10.2.7
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New DK guild tank
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Post by
143569
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Wildhorn
Spell Deflection, Mark of Blood = "useless" talents. Should spend these points elsewhere.
Ravenous Death doesnt worth 3 points if you do not have the perma ghoul. Should spend these points elsewhere.
Blood Gorged. As a tank, it is not as much useful as for DPS. Most of time you wont be over 75% hp, so you only benefit half of the talent.
Death Rune Mastery, that must be why he lack threat. His UH/FR runes do not turn into DR, so he cant use HS with em.
Post by
fall
His spec, while needing some minor tweaks, definately isn't the cause of his low threat. He probably isn't doing his rotation good enough (slow or wrong).
Also don't listen to the above poster. If you're below 75% hp for more than 30% of the time you're tanking, then you have bad healers. You also have mark of blood for getting you above that.
Mark of blood has good synergy with many blood talents like blood gorged and will of the necropolis.
Death rune mastery helps threat significantly only on aoe pulls, on single target it's a small(ish) boost (important, but still doesn't explain lack of threat). Has great utility though.
Edit: oh yeah and if you took him for survivability as you said he should definately spec into all possible survivability talents even if they don't deserve all their points like spell deflection. If by hard hitting bosses you only meant general vezax, then ok, its completely useless, he does no spell damage on tank.
Post by
Nystali
I'm worried about his defense. He is currently crittable even with his sigil proc. Hopefully he's just been doing some DPSing and he just replaced the rune on his weapon. Then again, he is in his tank gear. At the gear level he is at, with SSG, he should be over 540. Right now he'd just be 539. I wouldn't want to depend on a sigil proc for higher level raids.
He's not hit capped, but he's close enough that his tps shouldn't be hurt that much, but then again, if you guys are off in Ulduar expecting him to tank and keep threat over folks 3k+ dps, he should be closer to melee hit cap and at the very least the expertise soft cap for blood.
Remind him that he shouldn't be gemming parry. There is a dodge+stam gem that would be better on his shoulder if he wants to gem for avoidance (I'd gem hit or expertise instead personally).
I would also be more inclined to have Death Rune Mastery over Ravenous Dead.
Post by
Wildhorn
Also don't listen to the above poster. If you're below 75% hp for more than 30% of the time you're tanking, then you have bad healers. You also have mark of blood for getting you above that.
The thing is that the tank HP fluctuate alot. So the chance that you swing or use ability while your hp is under 75% is rather high. Also
Blood Gorged
is an "aura", which is like Bladed Armor. So most likely the effect is checked/applied every 30 seconds. So if it happens when you are under 75% hp, you wont benefit it for 30 seconds. (I am pretty sure it is like that, else it would demand way too much server time).
Post by
334662
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
fall
Also don't listen to the above poster. If you're below 75% hp for more than 30% of the time you're tanking, then you have bad healers. You also have mark of blood for getting you above that.
The thing is that the tank HP fluctuate alot. So the chance that you swing or use ability while your hp is under 75% is rather high. Also
Blood Gorged
is an "aura", which is like Bladed Armor. So most likely the effect is checked/applied every 30 seconds. So if it happens when you are under 75% hp, you wont benefit it for 30 seconds. (I am pretty sure it is like that, else it would demand way too much server time).
Do you have experience with tanking both with and without that talent or are you just theorycrafting?
Post by
fall
@lynri: while generally a really good post I beg to differ on some things.
Self healing
is
a part of blood tanking. Even if it isn't a big one, it still is. As I said above, rune tap has really good synergy with some other talents.
As a healer during lvl 60 till naxxramas I know really well how tank killers aren't really steady damage but spikes, and what is the best way to counter them if not WotN + rune tap.
edit: also, does spell deflection still have that bug?
Post by
svl007
That being said, DRM is weak for Single Target since you use only 2 HS anyway. DS > HS at the moment, especially with threat Sigils like Sigil of Awareness. (since it's the only DK threat sigil, the only other good sigil is the avoidance one from 25man Uld)
care to elaborate on that one? bc my calculations give other results.
calculations done assuming ID, 20%crit, 5000AP, 45k hp,
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcErVh0Ic0ofssxhxZ0gh
and 2 disseases on target at all time which are refreshed by glyph of disease.
mine are for your DS heavy rotation (3xhs, 4xDS,1Xpest) with sigil of awareness and glyph of DS
58927threat if you have 0 overhealing (and only engaged in combat with 1 mob)
45877threat if you have 100% overhealing
for hs heavy rotation (7xhs, 2xDS, 1xpest) without sigil of awareness/vengefull hearth, nor glyph of DS (important since you can take RS one and boost your tps through that way)
58822threat if you have 0 overhealing (and only engaged in combat with 1 mob)
52297threat if you have 100% overhealing
for hs heavy rotation (7xhs, 2xDS, 1xpest) with sigil of vengefull hearth, no glyph of DS (important since you can take RS one and boost your tps through that way)
59614threat if you have 0 overhealing (and only engaged in combat with 1 mob)
53089threat if you have 100% overhealing
remarks:
*didn't factor in the free gcd ds heavy rotation has which could be used for extra DC though at max you could fire of 2 extra DC (which would come close to an extra 5k threat which is easily offset by glyph of RS and fact that you are gonna overheal and DS heavy rotation suffers most from that)
*from a quick look DS heavy rotation does seem to scale slightly better, but not by much and i'll have to look in to that more closely
*DS heavy rotation get's more out of threat sigil then hs heavy one.
*DS heavy rotation loses a lot of tps when overhealing or when engaged in combat with several mobs also in comparison to hs heavy one, both still lose significant.
*DS heavy rotation when spec for it ofc, always has Death runes, which makes it easier to use survival cd's like vampiric blood, RT and the like. (though it is harder penalised threat wise then hs heavy rotation for using such a cd)
*sigil of vengefull hearth isn't worth a lot and you should pass it to dps at all times. in matter of fact glyph of awareness is better even for hs heavy rotation.
*left dmg from diseases, white hits and rs out of calculation since they are same for both. (unless ofc hs heavy uses RS glyph)
*DS heavy rotation is for obvious reason slightly better at burst threat.
*DS heavy rotation scales better with your hp then hs heavy one
ps i'll post calculations when i have more time this evening.
Post by
334662
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svl007
well the question was why you use a DS heavy rotation over a HS heavy one? since my calculations (if right ofc) don't show them at top.
posted this somewhere else aswell so just gonna repost it (wall of text)
Hey,
i've had an argument with another blood tank on my server over it. so i'd like to see what you people think about it.
With DS heavy rotation i mean: hs>hs>ds>ds hs>pest>ds>ds (or 3xhs, 4xds, 1xpest)
with HS heavy rotation i mean: hs>hs>ds>ds hs>hs>hs>hs>hs>pest (or 7xhs, 2xds>1xpest)
first of i'll post the calculations i've made concerning the dps and therefor tps of hs and ds. i hope some ppl will take the time to check if these calculations are correct.
calculations assume 2 diseases on target and they are being refreshed with glyph of disease.
build used is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft in other words
things that buff hs specificly:
* Subversion - Spell - World of Warcraft =>9%crit
* Bloody Strikes - Spell - World of Warcraft =>+45% dmg
* Might of Mograine - Spell - World of Warcraft =>+45% critical strike dmg bonus
* Sudden Doom - Spell - World of Warcraft => 15%chance to proc death coil
* Sigil of the Vengeful Heart - Item - World of Warcraft => +380dmg on death coil (if used)
* Bloody Vengeance - Spell - World of Warcraft => +9% physical dmg (assuming 100% up time for simplicity)
things that buff ds specificly
* Improved Death Strike - Spell - World of Warcraft =>6%crit; +30%dmg; +50%healing
* Might of Mograine - Spell - World of Warcraft =>+45% critical strike dmg bonus
* Glyph of Death Strike - Item - World of Warcraft => +25%dmg (if used)
* Sigil of Awareness - Item - World of Warcraft => +315dmg (if used)
* Bloody Vengeance - Spell - World of Warcraft => +9% dmg (assuming 100% up time for simplicity)
so the calculations
hs dmg:
1.09*(((x+0.09)*2.45+(1-(x+0.09))*1.45(1.2((((y+(z/14))*1.04)*a*0.5)+368)))+0.15*(2*x+(1-x))*1.15*(443+0.2z+b)
where x is crit chance in 0.xx form
y is weapon dps
z=ap
a=weapon speed
b= bonus from sigil of vengeful heart
when assuming 45k hp, 5kap, 20%crit and Inevitable Defeat - Item - World of Warcraft
that translates to:
3961dmg without sigil of vengeful heart => 5743threat
4039dmg with sigil of vengeful heart => 5857threat
ds dmg:
1.09*(((x+0.06)*2.45+(1-(x+0.06)))*c*1.3*((((y+(z/14))*1.04)*a*0.75)+222.75+b)
where x is crit chance in 0.xx form
y is weapon dps
z=ap
a=weapon speed
b= bonus from sigil of awareness when using it ofc.
c=1.25 when using glyph of DS
when assuming 45k hp, 5kap, 20%crit and Inevitable Defeat - Item - World of Warcraft
that translates to:
3336dmg without glyph or sigil => 4837
3951dmg without glyph but with sigil => 5729
4170dmg with glyph but without sigil => 6047
4938dmg with glyph and sigil => 7160
ds healing:
1.5*0.1*d
where d is max hp
that translates to 6750 healing => 4894threat
so putting it together
DS glyph + sigil of awareness
DS heavy (0 overhealing): 65445threat
DS heavy (100% overhealing): 45869threat
HS heavy (0 overhealing): 64309threat
hs heavy (100% overhealing): 54521threat
DS glyph + sigil of vengefull heart
DS heavy (0 overhealing): 61335threat
DS heavy (100% overhealing): 41759threat
HS heavy (0 overhealing): 62881threat
hs heavy (100% overhealing): 53093threat
DS glyph
DS heavy (0 overhealing): 60993threat
DS heavy (100% overhealing): 41417threat
HS heavy (0 overhealing): 62083threat
hs heavy (100% overhealing): 52295threat
Sigil of vengefull heart
DS heavy (0 overhealing): 56495threat
DS heavy (100% overhealing): 36919threat
HS heavy (0 overhealing): 60461threat
hs heavy (100% overhealing): 50673hreat
Sigil of awareness
DS heavy (0 overhealing): 59721threat
DS heavy (100% overhealing): 40145threat
HS heavy (0 overhealing): 61447threat
hs heavy (100% overhealing): 51659threat
'Nothing'
DS heavy (0 overhealing): 56153threat
DS heavy (100% overhealing): 36577threat
HS heavy (0 overhealing): 59663threat
hs heavy (100% overhealing): 49875threat
caveat i didn't factor in blood gorged, bc quite frankly i don't really have an idea on how to factor in the armor reduction and rather hard to really estimate a good uptime on the extra dmg, however since both of these effect benifit tps through dmg rather then tps through healing i'd imagin it would even enlarge the difference between ds heavy and hs heavy rotation. which brings us to boss armour, since that reduces dmg and therefor tps from dmg it favours tps through healing favoring the ds heavy rotation.
conclusions:
* DS heavy rotation has the potential to be the strongest, but to do so requires glyph, sigil and the unlikely situation of 0 overhealing.
* DS heavy rotation takes the biggest hit of overhealing, but even hs heavy rotation takes a significant hit when overhealing. (or when heal aggro is spread over multiple mobs)
* sigil of vengefull heart is no good, sigil of awareness trumps it in every aspect.
* DS heavy rotation scales better, but bc of the heavy reliance on overhealing (and my experience of a lot of overhealing) is unlikely to ever overcome a hs heavy rotation
* DS heavy rotation is easier on the GCD's
* since healing is a substantial tps source stamina might also be considered a tps stat for blood dk's
* when using hs heavy rotation it's probably better to opt for glyph of RS then the DS one
To me from this results it would seem hs heavy rotation is better however i'd like to hear your opinions bc i might oversee other pros on cons since threat isn't everything. i'd also appreciate some feedback on the calculations and maybe some suggestions concerning the 2 caveats since they might totally flip over the results although i doubt that.
GZ
waZDaa
as you can see only when running DS glyph and sigil of awareness does DS heavy rotation trump HS heavy one in theory, bc quite frankly you are gonna overheal and you are gonna be engaged with several mobs (even on bosses you're not always fighting against one mob), putting HS heavy rotation ahead of DS heavy one even when buffing that DS as much as you can.
Post by
334662
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svl007
i didn't say anything about using hs in an aoe situation if that argument is pointed at me. i'm only suggesting that even in boss fights where adds are present (tanked by your ot so you don't have to D&D and bb)healing tps is gonna get divided over all mobs.
2nd i only made 0 overhealing and 100% overhealing to show which one is more dependent on the healing part. it's unlikely you'll have 100% overhealing, but it's also unlikely that you'll have 0 overhealing even in the situations you point out. i'm sure everyone can figure out how much threat is coming from healing and adjust it to their own findings of how much overhealing they have.
3rd he might just not have the sigil, he's still wearing some ilvl 200 epics (nothing wrong with that ofc) so he might not have acces to it yet. didn't drop and prefer to spend his emblems on valor on armour rather then a sigil.
4th true i didn't take vampiric blood in consideration nor did i factor in the 6% healing bonus provided by tree or disc priest in raid. quick calculations for sigil and glyph and corrected for VB uptime put DS heavy at 67109 and HS heavy at 65141 threat. though without sigil like him it's DS heavy at 61825 and HS heavy at 62915.
5th i mentioned the DS and RS glyph part bc i'm sure many other blood tanks that use disease glyph also are asked by their rl and healers to use vampiric blood one, leaving only one glyph spot free in which case you have to chose between the 2
6th a missed DS gives 0dmg and 0 healing so 0threat same as a missed hs. i admit that hs heavy rotation does have a bigger issue since it has very few free gcd's, however when you get behind your rotation you can always replace 2 hs's with a ds to catch up again. as for the the free gcd's i mentioned that earlier. just add 2887 threat for every extra dc you can get off over a hs heavy rotation.
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