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Dodge vs Defense
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Post by
142317
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aadramelekh
Dodge rating provides much more avoidance than defense.
39 dodge rating = ~1% dodge (1% avoidance)
39 defense rating = ~8 defense skill = 8*0.04% miss + 8*0.04% dodge = 0.32% miss + 0.32% dodge = 0.64% avoidance
In the end, dodge rating is about 50% more efficient for Bear Tanking avoidance than defense rating. If Bears would be able to parry as well, then defense rating would have the same effect as dodge.
Post by
237811
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
Ok, I just did a little bit of math to narrow down the breakpoint in these 2 stats caused by diminishing returns:
I calculated how much avoidance (miss + dodge) you'd get from 1 Dodge Rating and 1 Defense Rating at different amounts of dodge... Aadr's numbers are right for pre-DR numbers, but diminishing returns can get pretty ugly at higher dodge levels, eventually the miss from Defense will make it a better stat due to Diminishing Returns on dodge.
My assumption was that you had so little defense rating that the DR for Miss% is still under the 'penalize' breakpoint (meaning it actually helps you out) so I'm adding the full effect of +Miss% and not even attempting a miss% diminishing returns calc, as long as you have very little defense, this is probably actually a conservative estimate.
If you have
50%
Dodge from Agi/Dodge/Def (Your character screen will show
~50.67%
Dodge if this is true --
4.951 base + 10 talents + 35.72 postDR from stats
):
1 Defense Rating: .008133 miss%, .004034dodge% =
0.012167%
avoidance
1 Dodge Rating: 0.012606% dodge% =
0.012606%
avoidance
If you have
55%
Dodge from Agi/Dodge/Def (Your character screen will show
~53.08%
Dodge if this is true):
1 Defense Rating: .008133 miss%, .003799dodge% =
0.011931%
avoidance
1 Dodge Rating: 0.011869% dodge% =
0.011869%
avoidance
So on your character screen, somewhere between 50.67 and 53.08% dodge, Defense starts adding more avoidance per point than Dodge Rating. (my numbers could be wrong, but they should be close, bear in mind they do not consider DR to miss%, which is far more drastic than Dodge% DR once it kicks in -- Once you clear 55 Defense Rating, DR
starts
hurting your miss%, below 55 though, you'll actually get MORE miss% than the pre-DR numbers. )
edit: clarity... lol.
Post by
Bairforem
Defence rating is a stat meant for every tank MINUS feral druids. When it comes to feral druids your focus should be more so on agility and stam then dodge rating. None the less when it comes to necks and rings as you mention, the best stats to look for would be high amounts of stam, dodge rating, and stength. Why strength? It adds AP which improve savage defense.
If gear has parry or block on it, most likely the itemization will not be optimal for feral druids.
I suggest using an addon like ratingbuster to show how much dodge you gain through defense and compare the dodge and stam(health).
Post by
Aadramelekh
So on your character screen, somewhere between 50.67 and 53.08% dodge, Defense starts adding more avoidance per point than Dodge Rating.
The base formulas for agility-to-dodge and dodge rating-to-dodge are:
1% dodge = 41.66 agility
1% dodge = 39.34 dodge rating
Formula for DR on dodge:
Dodge (After DR) = 1 / (0.008555 + (0.9720 / Pre-DR Dodge))
If we take a series of numbers and make some calculations, we can see that DR on dodge follows a curve similar to armor. Keep in mind the 14.35% base dodge chance against a raid boss (0.6% penalty), unaffected by DR.
For 5% pre-DR dodge (from the character sheet values for agility and / or dodge rating), the final dodge will be 4.92 + 14.35 = 19.27% dodge. Let's make a simple table on this principle:
5% Pre-DR dodge ............................................. 19.27% dodge (4.92% dodge added, 1.6% penalty)
10% Pre-DR dodge ............................................. 23.81% dodge (4.54% added, 9.2% penalty)
15% Pre-DR dodge ............................................. 27.99% dodge (4.18% added, 16.4% penalty)
20% Pre-DR dodge ............................................. 31.86% dodge (3.87% added, 22.6% penalty)
25% Pre-DR dodge ............................................. 35.44% dodge (3.58% added, 28.4% penalty)
30% Pre-DR dodge ............................................. 38.79% dodge (3.35% added, 33% penalty)
35% Pre-DR dodge ............................................. 41.89% dodge (3.1% added, 38% penalty)
40% Pre-DR dodge ............................................. 44.83% dodge (2.94% added, 41.2% penalty)
45% Pre-DR dodge ............................................. 47.57% dodge (2.74% added, 45.2% penalty)
50% Pre-DR dodge ............................................. 50.19% dodge (2.62% added, 47.6% penalty)
55% Pre-DR dodge ............................................. 52.51% dodge (2.32% added, 53.6% penalty)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As we can see, the avoidance after DR draws closer and closer to the avoidance obtained from defense rating, since the miss chance granted by defense isn't subjected to DR. Over ~52% Pre-DR dodge, defense rating becomes more valuable. However reaching even 50% pre-DR dodge (passive) is absolutely impossible for a Bear (2080 agility needed for that). As such,
defense rating shouldn't even be considered a possible option for enchanting / socketing.
All this proves one thing: that it is not worth going over 30% Pre-DR dodge by stacking more agility / dodge, since from this point on stamina becomes more valuable (even more so, since the stamina-to-agility ratio is 1.5:1 in terms of itemization points).
A value of about 37% passive dodge unbuffed (~1100 agility plus additional dodge rating from rings / amulets / cloaks) should be more than enough for a Bear that wants to enter Ulduar for instance. Any gear upgrade from there will provide more agility and dodge on its own, and the gems / enchants should be fully focused on stamina (and hit/expertise if necessary).
Post by
Heckler
...since the miss chance granted by defense isn't subjected to DR...
I think it is, and I think this is the formula: (Could be wrong)
Miss% (After DR) = 1 / (0.0625 + (0.972 / Pre-DR Miss%))
Whitetooth sez This exact formula hasn't been 'proven' for druids yet, but the 'cap' of 16% miss is accepted for warriors, pallies, and death knights, and is likely the same for every class. Even if 16% is wrong, the miss% still has a DR calculation, and this should give a good guess as to its effect. This is what I used in my statement that Miss% starts diminishing above 55 Defense Rating, and below that the DR calc actually gives you
more
miss% than Defense gives you pre-DR.
Surprisingly enough, our numbers above actually agree with each other nearly perfectly, your point about 52% pre-DR being impossible is a good one though. Point being, its always nice when 2 independent calculations agree with each other. But I agree with your bottom line, by the time you get to this point (which is impossible), more dodge shouldn't be your focus.
Post by
Aadramelekh
Hmmm, if the DR applies for miss as well, then it's all in favor of dodge rating over defense rating when choosing between tanking pieces such as the
Signet of Winter
and
Signet of the Impregnable Fortress
- in case you can spare the hit and expertise from the second piece, the Signet of Winter is an excellent Bear Tanking ring, even if Bears cannot parry, since very little is spent on parry itemization. It is actually on par with the imba
Gatekeeper
imo.
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