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An article on Varian Wrynn being right
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Post by
Supremacy
As far as Lordaeron goes, that land rightfully belongs to the Alliance. It was a human kingdom, and actually where Anduin Lothar took some large steps towards creating an Alliance against the demonic orcs.
When the Scourge plague arrived, the Alliance was forced to flee Lordaeron, and it lay in ruins. Then Arthas
Menethil
, assumed the role of king as an agent of the Scourge. Eventually, when the Forsaken broke off from the Scourge, they seized Lordaeron (the capital) as their base of operations.
...
...this by no means even remotely gives the Forsaken the rights to the land. That would be like getting carjacked by five members of a gang, then having a civil war erupt between members of the gang, one of them breaking off, then claiming your stolen car as his own.
Another thing I think people are losing sight of. Varian, for example, is the king of Stormwind. That does not mean his reach and his lands stop at the Stormwind gates. Elwynn Forest and Redridge are parts of his kingdom, just as much as Sen'jin Village and Razor Hill are a part of Orgrimmar.
Also,
http://www.wowwiki.com/Lordaeron
. I got curious after hearing so many people debating it.
Post by
Skreeran
Varian's their
king,
as far as I know they can't just tell him "Look, you're screwing our nation up we need to let you go."
they'd have to openly rebel and then they'd have to fight the Stormwind army. They'd die!
While I agree, I can't see how fighting the Horde is any less dangerous... :\
As far as Lordaeron goes, that land rightfully belongs to the Alliance. It was a human kingdom, and actually where Anduin Lothar took some large steps towards creating an Alliance against the demonic orcs.
When the Scourge plague arrived, the Alliance was forced to flee Lordaeron, and it lay in ruins. Then Arthas
Menethil
, assumed the role of king as an agent of the Scourge. Eventually, when the Forsaken broke off from the Scourge, they seized Lordaeron (the capital) as their base of operations.
...
...this by no means even remotely gives the Forsaken the rights to the land. That would be like getting carjacked by five members of a gang, then having a civil war erupt between members of the gang, one of them breaking off, then claiming your stolen car as his own.
Another thing I think people are losing sight of. Varian, for example, is the king of Stormwind. That does not mean his reach and his lands stop at the Stormwind gates. Elwynn Forest and Redridge are parts of his kingdom, just as much as Sen'jin Village and Razor Hill are a part of Orgrimmar.
Also,
http://www.wowwiki.com/Lordaeron
. I got curious after hearing so many people debating it.Who made up the Scourge?
Citizens of Lordaeron.
In the end, Lordaeron belongs to the people of Lordaeron, not the people of Stormwind. Even if they are undead.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Supremacy
Varian's their
king,
as far as I know they can't just tell him "Look, you're screwing our nation up we need to let you go."
they'd have to openly rebel and then they'd have to fight the Stormwind army. They'd die!
While I agree, I can't see how fighting the Horde is any less dangerous... :\
It's not safe fighting the forces of the Horde. It's rarely safe to wage a war.
The problem is that Varian is convinced that not fighting the Horde is a far greater risk. From his standpoint, they are simply out to destroy the Alliance. They are a threat that cannot be ignored. The initial author of that article made a good argument that supports that reasoning.
Varian is not just declaring open war on the Horde on a whim. It's not something he's doing to spice things up. He is convinced that they are a real, serious threat.
Who made up the Scourge?
Citizens of Lordaeron.
In the end, Lordaeron belongs to the people of Lordaeron, not the people of Stormwind. Even if they are undead.
I'm afraid it's not that simple. For one, there's no way of determining if the Forsaken that are currently in Lordaeron are the same ones that initially lived there. For all we know, those Scourge could have been killed. These could just be replacements.
Delterius does raise a valid point about the actual claims to Lordaeron. Stormwind? Theramore? Could be.
Thing is, though, those are all factions of the Alliance. If there's some dispute over who owns it, it's something that needs to be sorted about within the Alliance. The only claim the Forsaken have over the lands came about because of the Scourge. Still...it's not their land.
The citizens do not own the land. The kingdoms do. And once the citizens decide to take up arms against the government, either from civil strife or undead plague, well...you kind of give up certain rights when you do that.
What if the people in California decided to take up arms against the rest of the country? And the rest of America is trying to get California back, but native Californians say "This is our land"?
I don't think that would fly.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Who made up the Scourge?
Citizens of Lordaeron.
In the end, Lordaeron belongs to the people of Lordaeron, not the people of Stormwind. Even if they are undead.
I'm afraid it's not that simple. For one, there's no way of determining if the Forsaken that are currently in Lordaeron are the same ones that initially lived there. For all we know, those Scourge could have been killed. These could just be replacements.
Delterius does raise a valid point about the actual claims to Lordaeron. Stormwind? Theramore? Could be.
Thing is, though, those are all factions of the Alliance. If there's some dispute over who owns it, it's something that needs to be sorted about within the Alliance. The only claim the Forsaken have over the lands came about because of the Scourge. Still...it's not their land.
The citizens do not own the land. The kingdoms do. And once the citizens decide to take up arms against the government, either from civil strife or undead plague, well...you kind of give up certain rights when you do that.
What if the people in California decided to take up arms against the rest of the country? And the rest of America is trying to get California back, but native Californians say "This is our land"?
I don't think that would fly.
1. Replacement from where? The entire Scourge of Lordaeron was made up of dead... Uh... Lordaeranians... Anyway... The Forsaken were citizens of Lordaeron in life, they're citizens in death. The Stormwind Humans (those who didn't flee from Lordaeron, those are a minority anyway) have no claim to Lordaeron. Theramore is the closest thing, as they originally came from Lordaeron, but they're not the ones trying to reclaim it.
2. Even if California seceded frm the United States, we wouldn't have a right to go kill all the people who lived there and take their land because it was once a part of the United States. What Varian is doing is basically like the War of 1812. England came back to take back the U.S. It doesn't belong to them just because it was once part of their empire.
Post by
Supremacy
1. Replacement from where? The entire Scourge of Lordaeron was made up of dead... Uh... Lordaeranians... Anyway... The Forsaken were citizens of Lordaeron in life, they're citizens in death. The Stormwind Humans (those who didn't flee from Lordaeron, those are a minority anyway) have no claim to Lordaeron. Theramore is the closest thing, as they originally came from Lordaeron, but they're not the ones trying to reclaim it.
That's...that's kind of my point. The land belonged to a nation that was part of the Alliance. If you're arguing that the Forsaken are still citizens in death as they are in life, then they're citizens of a government that is part of the Alliance.
Which would technically make what they're doing treason.
If those are, as I said, the same Scourge that were there during the plague. For all we know, Arthas sent the original ones away on a mission, or something. He does have a military mind, even if he's also out of his gourd.
2. Even if California seceded frm the United States, we wouldn't have a right to go kill all the people who lived there and take their land because it was once a part of the United States. What Varian is doing is basically like the War of 1812. England came back to take back the U.S. It doesn't belong to them just because it was once part of their empire.
Yes.
Yes, we would. I'm thinking this would be more like the Civil War. No wars were won, no treaties signed. A bunch of squatters trying to keep the rightful owners of the property out.
Post by
Skreeran
1. Replacement from where? The entire Scourge of Lordaeron was made up of dead... Uh... Lordaeranians... Anyway... The Forsaken were citizens of Lordaeron in life, they're citizens in death. The Stormwind Humans (those who didn't flee from Lordaeron, those are a minority anyway) have no claim to Lordaeron. Theramore is the closest thing, as they originally came from Lordaeron, but they're not the ones trying to reclaim it.
That's...that's kind of my point. The land belonged to a nation that was part of the Alliance. If you're arguing that the Forsaken are still citizens in death as they are in life, then they're citizens of a government that is part of the Alliance.
Which would technically make what they're doing treason.
If those are, as I said, the same Scourge that were there during the plague. For all we know, Arthas sent the original ones away on a mission, or something. He does have a military mind, even if he's also out of his gourd.
Lordaeron is no longer part of the Alliance. Whether they left or were kicked out when they became undead is debatable, but just like the Blood Elves, the Alliance won't help them, so they joined the Horde. It's
their
land, you can't just say that because Lordaeron as a nation belonged to the Alliance at one point, the land belongs to the Alliance even if the citizens leave the organization.
2. Even if California seceded frm the United States, we wouldn't have a right to go kill all the people who lived there and take their land because it was once a part of the United States. What Varian is doing is basically like the War of 1812. England came back to take back the U.S. It doesn't belong to them just because it was once part of their empire.
Yes.
Yes, we would. I'm thinking this would be more like the Civil War. No wars were won, no treaties signed. A bunch of squatters trying to keep the rightful owners of the property out.
No... We wouldn't. Their land belongs to them. The people are part of the government, not the land. By your logic, the East coast of the United States is wholly owned by the Kingdom of England.
Post by
Supremacy
No... We wouldn't. Their land belongs to them. The people are part of the government, not the land. By your logic, the East coast of the United States is wholly owned by the Kingdom of England.
...no...no, my logic doesn't say that at all. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.
I think that's one of the reasons I referenced a treaty, or some such? Something actually declaring "Okay, fine, this is now your land." No such treaty existed in the case of the Forsaken. No one ever said "Okay, fine, this is your place now."
It's not a matter of Lordaeron belonging to the Alliance "at some point". That land still belongs to the Alliance. Because the alternative would mean that a group of criminals could rob a bank, and then just stay there. Even if they had help from a corrupt bank employee, or something. The rightful owners of the bank are still entitled to their property.
Not the people. The bank.
Post by
Skreeran
Wrong. It's like being part of a government and then you die. The government says that your house belongs to them. Well, it turns out you didn't actually die, and you want your house back. You own it, you've always lived there, but the government says that it belongs to them instead of you.
The Forsaken aren't a marauding band of invaders. They are the people who lived in Lordaeron their whole life and continue to live there. Lordaeron belongs to them.
Just because they were part of the Alliance does not mean that the Alliance possesses everything that they owned. Lordaeron was their land. If the citizens of Lordaeron invaded Stormwind, Stormwind would still rightfully belong to the citizens of Stormwind. The same is true in reverse. What claim do the Alliance have to Lordaeron? What if Lordaeron had decided to leave the Alliance before they had died? You're saying that if that were to happen, the Humans of Stormwind would have every right to come up north and kick the Humans of Lordaeron out. And that simply isn't right. Lordaeron belongs to the people of Lordaeron. Now and forever.
Post by
Patty
It is also worth noting the Alliance abandoned the Forsaken and did not trust them. So, any hope of the Alliance owning Lordaeron was thrown away by the Alliance when they rejected the undead who freed themselves from the Lich King, no wonder they are so bitter.
Lordaeron was the "Capital" Of The Alliance, it could be argued, and the people of Lordaeron were killed, made into pawns of the Lich King, broke free from his control and were shunted by the Alliance, despite Lordaeron being the Founder of The Alliance.
Some of the Scourge are from Quel'Thalas, so some like Sylvanas herself broke free. The majority are humans of Lordaeron, however. The Monarchy of Lordaeron was ruined, with Arthas becoming part of the Lich King, Terenas dead and his sister's whereabouts being unknown. Calia is the only person with a legitimate claim to the throne other than the Forsaken, but we do not know where she is, or if she is alive or dead.
The other people who remain in Lordaeron that are the people of Lordaeron are the Argent Dawn, Scarlet Crusade and the Scourge. The Argent Dawn is the only friendly faction, and accepts that the Forsaken have control over Capital City, why the Alliance can not accept this is beyond me, it is their land with no Ruler to tell them otherwise.
Post by
Dave21480
I would look at it this way. Arthas was successor to the throne, which he did by slaying his father. If this is good or not, does not matter as it has been done through actual history and not just warcraft lore.
Now, after he did so, he commanded his new army to make his kingdom more um......similar. After awhile, when his powers were dying..he took off to the northrend (compressing the story slightly) and never rightfully gave up his throne....but it was taken by the nazeriem(sp?) which lady sylvanas soon took over from them.
You can say it rightfully belongs to arthas if you want, but to sw? some other alliance city? I think not.
Besides, i doubt the alliance would want it. It being so close to the plaugelands and possibly contamination could always occur. Who would want to live next to all that stuff anyways....dead people, thats who.
Post by
Dralas
Look, If Arthas had an actual claim to Lordaeron, do you think the Alliance would care? No, the Alliance does not care about Arthas having any type of claim of Lordaeron because Arthas is a traitor. Like anyone will just let Arthas walk up to Lordaeron, sit down, and everyone goes "Well he IS the successor...", that's not going to happen. Alliance would wage all out war the moment Arthas stepped in their because:
1) To kill the traitor
2) To take Lordaeron from a "corrupt king"
The forsaken do not have claims to Lordaeron, why? Because that territory would belong to the other human kingdoms, not a entirely new race.
For those saying that we had not let the undead that broke free become part of the Alliance, why would we? Humans were the vast majority that were affected by the plague, many died, and many more saw undead kill those they knew. You think that they'll let that go? Yeah yeah, your thinking "But wait! Arthas made them do that!", and? That's like saying that some guy went up to your family, shot them all, and then came back later and said "Sorry but I had no choice, no hard feeling right?" Doesn't work that way.
Post by
Morec0
I'm afraid they don't get that, Dave.
If you miss the refference you play WoW
too
much.
Post by
Skreeran
I'm afraid they don't get that, Dave.
If you miss the refference you play WoW
too
much.Hey! That's my line! *points to icon*
But the thing you guys aren't getting is that the Forsaken
are
humans. They're undead now, but that's not their fault.
Lordaeron does not belong to the Alliance. It belongs to it's people. The people who lived there all their lives were the ones who owned that land. The majority of those people are now undead. It's still their land. You can't say "the undead killed the owners and took their land" because the undead were the owners. Who made up the Scourge? The people of Lordaeron. Yes, the undead were a malicious force that killed people, but they were not even functioning under their own will. They did nothing wrong by dying and then being physically/magically forced to fight.
And no, the territory of Lordaeron does not belong to other human kingdoms. That doesn't even make sense. Lordaeron belongs to Lordaeron. The people of Lordaeron's status as undead does not forfeit their land to other nations. What was their in life is still theirs in death.
Post by
Dave21480
1) To kill the traitor
2) To take Lordaeron from a "corrupt king"
A corrupt king, is still king. The lordaeron of the alliance no longer exists. In fact, who of lordaeron would come in and rightfully take their palce as king?
Someone new, not of, or having been of lordaeron. Except for Calia. And good luck finding her.
And furthermore, Stratholme and Andorhal, both in the plaugelands. Both major cities in this region, are not even controlled by lady sylvanas. The region has seen major decimation and is probably deemed worthless, and not worth the time and men to take it back. You can do nothing with the plaugelands.....so why own it?
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
well it is to be pointed out, that the areas around south shore in the hillsbrad foothills would have been under the alliance of lordaeron, and i thought there were still living farmers around the trisfal glades. So there are still Living Lordaeronian's who are apart of the current alliance. That Must be pointed out. also to, the forsaken are no longer alive, they are undead... if they were alive, things would be different. if they are dead, that makes no sense why they should keep it; it would (obviously) belong to the ones still alive; that's not fair for the land to belong to people who already died, and, logically makes no sense considering that if that logic is implemented, why would it be their land? Because there were people who died before the forsaken, and people before them, making an infinite regress.
Yes, the land of Hillsbrad should belong to the people living there. I think that the attacks that the Forsaken are making there are wrong. But the citizens of Southshore and Hillsbrad fields are just a drop in the vast pool of Lordaeronians, many of whom were raised in undeath, and a sizable portion of those are now the Forsaken. If there are living people living there, the Forsaken should not take it from them, but if the people that lived there were turned into zombies then those same people have every right to claim their land now. You can't just say that they're dead, because they're not. Undead is not the same as alive, but in this situation, the two terms are almost interchangable. Both living humans and Forsaken have minds of their own. Both living humans and Forsaken are not actually dead. The details of their physical status matter little in this particular situation, and for all intents and purposes, they are alive.
However, they are not alive or dead, but somewhere in the middle... undead. Neither dead nor alive;(i assume a mix of both) the only fair thing to do then, is something imbetween them giving up their land's and keeping it. The only compromise one can think up of, is the simple fact that they Both own the land, as they did in the past. I.e. The forsaken still live there but allow other living humans to live there. so, in essence they share it, like under a big kingdom.
This is, of course, impossible due to the fact that they hate each other and are at war with each other. this conflict is not something in which one group of people rightfully owns the land, because it is a civil war.Like I said before, they're closer to alive than dead (in a spiritual/mental sense, not a physical one) and they should be treated as such. The reason dead people no longer own their possessions is because they're dead, they no longer need them, they can't think, move, or in any way use their possessions. The undead are different. In most cases, the undead might as well be treated as dead, because they do not have free will, or they cannot think, etc. However, the Forsaken do have free wills, and as I said before, for all intents and purposes, they are alive. It's as simple as that. They think, they speak, and it's unfair to treat them as a truly dead person when it's only their body that is dead. Why should some other human have rights to a Forsaken's land just because of the physical state of his body? That's not fair.
Post by
Supremacy
Wrong. It's like being part of a government and then you die. The government says that your house belongs to them. Well, it turns out you didn't actually die, and you want your house back. You own it, you've always lived there, but the government says that it belongs to them instead of you.
That's not entirely wrong, it's just incomplete. A more accurate scenario would be you own a house, then die. During death, you wage war on the government where you lived. Against your will, but still. You finally get your free will back, then you decide you want the house back...also, you still wage war on the government.
Besides, you owned the land on the government property. You still pay taxes, and all that. I promise you that people in a kingdom, alliance, horde, or any kind of government do not have the degree of autonomy that you seem to be suggesting.
*Shrug* I mean, it seems that you're trying to argue that the Alliance should respect their rights the land, and turn a blind eye to the fact that they're at war. And...you know, that whole allowing a Horde faction to headquarter themselves on Alliance soil.
I think, though, we may be getting a bit off track of the initial point of this thread. I was more interested in a discussion on that article, not the specifics of who is entitled to what lands in WoW. The case of land ownership and rights is probably, from what I'm seeing, extensive enough to warrant its own thread.
To it, then!
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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