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An article on Varian Wrynn being right
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Post by
109094
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Post by
Skreeran
So why hasn't Tirion given a similar endoresment of the Horde in general?He did. And he was kicked out of the Silver Hand because of it.
Varian did send ambassadors after Wraithgate, Jania + your toon. He was still giving thrall some lee-way even then. It wasnt until he saw undercity that he flipped.Indeed, but he hardly listens to Jaina in Undercity.
Again, how do you know that Tirion, Rhoin, Alexstraza or any other powerful member of a non-horde/alliance faction are not simply trying to maniuplate both/either horde and/or alliance to achieve there own goals?You could say the same thing about the Death Knights. How does he know Tirion is just using the Knight of the Ebon Blade to gain a foothold against the Lich King. I'm not sure about you, but to me, Tirion and Alexstrasza's goals (keeping the world alive) are also goals of the Alliance and Horde.
Tirion with the Argent Dawn alone cant defeat the scourge, so he is willing to put aside old differences and work with the horde to accomplish a greater goal.
The same can be said of any of the major non-faction groups, to achieve something they couldn't do otherwise. There is no question that Horde & Alliance working together would be a pretty damn awesome force, that would also be a substantial reason to be trying to get them to work together and why everyone is trying to get them to see past their differences (though still failing to address any of the issues they have)Again, this is a good thing for the Alliance. If the Argent Dawn fails, the world dies. Besides, Tirion does trust the Horde for more than just tactical reasons, and Varian would know this if he actually listened to him.
Post by
109094
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Post by
Skreeran
But my overall point is that Varian is indeed wrong. He may be right about many things, but accepting Tirion's own acceptance of the Knights of the Ebon Blade while ignoring Tirion's support of the Horde just makes him seemed a little biased. Not to mention the fact that he wants to kill one of my favorite lore characters and people keep saying he's right about it.
He is at least wrong about that. I suppose that is why I hate him the most. He wants to kill my leader, my favorite faction, and all of my characters, despite them doing nothing to hurt him or the Allliance.
Post by
306612
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Post by
109094
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306612
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Post by
109094
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344679
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188262
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Post by
HoleofArt
Right, i havent read the whole entire thing here but on the whole "varian should trust Others thing" that i heard lemme give my two cents
so lets see who says "Trust horde!"
Alextrasza, tirion, Jaina, rhonin, Bloodelves
Firstoff, bloodelves didnt like orcs really but they joined out of necessity, if they didnt have to i bet they wouldn't have joined. it was their last chance, plus who else was blizz going to put in for BC who wasn't ugly?
Jaina: Umm.... She has had extremely positive experiences with orcs, her opinion is less valid then varians IMO. and they killed her father, but she let them and she saw that he was obviously crazy; she saw the worst side of humans dislike of orcs as well, not just the best side of orcs. she knows thrall, so of course she will be pro peace.
Tirion's life was saved by an orc. end of discussion.
Rhonin: I really don't know too much on his background story, but his opinion shouldn't be "more valid" then varians.
Alextrasza: this is probably the hardest for me to argue simply because she's a dragon that is displaying blizzard's point of view. However, we must take into account, that: i dont know what problems she has ever had with the "hippie" horde; she's never had anything with new orcs. Plus, she is a dragon; people dont mess with them, wether for simple self intrest or the more noble reasons of the fact that they are the good guys. she has also known good orcs, and she is not GOD, so she, though wise beyond years is, by no means for all intents and purposes, all-knowing.
The orcs most obviously would never pick a fight with red dragons even if they wanted because they would get their butts whooped. however, if they wanted to kill the humans, they would because they are on even ground.
Let me make an example:
Aite so you know some guy who treats you really bad and is a complete jerk to you. he harasses you day and night for no reason and is a complete dork and jerk. so you finally get away feeling depressed and go walk to the comfort of your friends and tell em about that guy. and they say "Dude, that guy is cool, he's pretty nice, i have no clue what your talking about." So then you try to be his buddy and patch things up, and he STILL is a complete jerk. Your friends tell you again that he's a nice guy; you try to not be his enemy again and it fails.
Now, the coolest guy ever who's totally awesome and everybody sucks up to, comes around. He knows everyone pretty well, and he's a really cool and nice guy. you tell him about that guy and he's like "what the heck are you talking about? that guy is a nice guy! he's cool!". You say "Dude, you havent been through what ive been through, he is a complete jerk." and they say "yeah sometimes he's a tad grumpy, like this one time but he is usually cool i dont know what your talking about."
And yet again the guy is a complete jerk to you.
At that point you would begin to think everybody is insane wouldn't you? its absolutely ludacris and illogical to not take your own personal events and experiences into perspective, because what are other's opinions but the cause of their experiences? are their experience somehow more valid then yours?
Orcs don't like Humans.
Orcs would suck up to red dragons even if they didnt like them.
think about it. of course alextrasza has nothing against the new horde. they would never be stupid enough to pick a fight with them. frankly, the "others" havent been through what varian has.
Other quick point:
Though it does seem a little biased that Varian would accept dk's and not orcs... we forget that Dk's were mind controlled, new orcs were not, and the individual dk that you are is pledging unquestioned loyalty to varian; the horde isnt. so there is a difference.
Sorry.... but no. Just no.
Rhonin and Alexstraza have more say than stupid Varian anyday. That shouldn't be hard to realize, seeing as how they've both witnessed the bad Horde, and the New Horde, and are both pleased with the change. Varian is just a stubborn jackass. Orcs don't "suck up" to anyone. Do you know nothing about them? I mean, seriously. They would rather suicide than suck up to anyone, except possibly their Warchief.
And Orcs don't mess with dragons? Dude, read some lore. Orcs ENSLAVED Alexstraza for years! Using her drakes as rideable mounts and attacking towns and villages! An yet she's totally happy with the New Horde!
Many, many people disagree with Varian, including his superiors. He just needs to stop being so stubborn and he'd see he's an idiot, and ruining everything the Alliance tried to stand up for; Peace? Justice?
Varian's too blind to see he's wrong, and he is.
There's no denying it.
Post by
109094
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Post by
HoleofArt
An yet she's totally happy with the New Horde
you sure? or does she just see them as required to defeat the bbeg?
Yes. There's several quests where she expresses her opinion on the New Horde along with Krasus.
Yes, there are still red dragons that remain untrusting, but they would never go into conflict with the New Horde, unlike Mr. Varian.
You know why? Because they know when to pull their punches. Varian doesn't. He's just reckless and stubborn.
I also don't like how Blizzard is trying to force Varian down everyones throat.
He's really not that cool.
He's a warrior with some magic elf blades... oooo.
Yeah well, Thrall's a Shaman-Warrior hybrid with Doomhammer and leveled a castle/keep back in his youngin' days.
Don't see Blizzard doing anything nice for him, except, once again, trying to make the Horde look like the 'bad guys'.
Alliance favortism, much?
Post by
344679
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Post by
229054
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Post by
HoleofArt
Yeah but the point i was making is that the orcs that enslaved her were entirely different orcs they were not hippie orcs. Though "Sucking up" may not be the correct term for orcs; i certainly see no reason for them to pick a fight with the dragons; as there are no old hatreds and they would get their butts whooped.
I seriously thought most of us could agree that varian was atleast not a crazy hot headed idiot... ive made this argument many times before dude i want to get on to the "so whats the smart thing to do?" argument.
Orcs are orcs. She was enslaved, and felt the pain and anguish of her babies being slaughtered pointlessly.
Now if Anduin had been killed by Orcs, then Varian would have an excuse, but he wasn't. Varian was just enslaved. Hell, they didn't even know who we was. HE didn't even know who he was.
Its not like you can blame the orcs. They came across a lost soul laying on the shore. "Hey, a free gladiator" Is all they thought. Not, "Hey, its King Varian! Let's enslave him for years so he can start a war agaisnt the Horde!"
"YEAH!"
That's not it at all.To the orcs, he could have just been a member of the Kul'Tiras sailors that ship-wrecked and washed up on shore.
Alexstraza has a much more valid reason to be %^&*ed.
She's not.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HoleofArt
Varian was just enslaved. Hell, they didn't even know who we was. HE didn't even know who he was.
Its not like you can blame the orcs. They came across a lost soul laying on the shore. "Hey, a free gladiator" Is all they thought. Not, "Hey, its King Varian! Let's enslave him for years so he can start a war agaisnt the Horde!"
"YEAH!"
That's not it at all.To the orcs, he could have just been a member of the Kul'Tiras sailors that ship-wrecked and washed up on shore.
Nah, they just saw another human and thought "lets make him our slave, throw him in a pit and let him fight for survival for our entertainment"
Yea, sounds like they truely cared about humans (for entertainment purposes ofc)
Like humans truly care about orcs?
They did the same thing mate. You can't fault one without faulting the other.
The point I was trying to make is that they were totally ignorant of the fact that they had the leader of the Alliance right in-front of their faces, and had they known, I'm sure they would have either;
A) Killed him. (As the humans would do for Thrall)
or B) Were loyal enough to the Horde to inform Thrall, who would have given him to Jaina.
There's just not enough information on these orcs to know anything for sure >.<
Post by
Skreeran
Well, all I can say is, hey, the slave industry is not supported by the Horde. Our leader was enslaved too, and forced to fight, but that doesn't mean the Alliance supports Horde slavery, does it?
Also:
Rehgar let Varian go.
Also:
It's worth mentioning, the life of a championship Gladiator isn't exactly terrible. Yes, you have to fight, but look at Bloodeye Redfist. He was living the good life until he was assassinated.
Post by
109094
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