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An article on Varian Wrynn being right
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Post by
Supremacy
Hey.
Recently, I read a very interesting article on Wowinsider, with the title of "
Varian Wrynn is Right
". It offers a specific, point by point argument of why Varian Wrynn is not just overreacting to situations. As the preface to the article points out, there's a common view that Varian is just a hotheaded, myopic bigot who will lead Azeroth into ruin.
Reading through a few of the comments on different threads of the lore section here, and even on some of the other forums on Wowhead, I'm noticing that's a popular belief here, too. Also, some people call him "emo", which might apply, but I don't really understand that term.
In any event, it is definitely worth a read. The actual article link is here:
http://www.wowinsider.com/2009/04/26/varian-wrynn-is-right/
Two words of warning, though.
1) The article is kind of long, and does contain some spoilers if you haven't done some of the Northrend quests (specifically, the Wrathgate). And you really should read it to the end.
2) The author uses the term "Horde Apologists", and reading through some of the comments, I'm noticing that phrase is being misinterpreted. Apologist is being used in the classic sense of the word. From the Greek apologia, meaning justification or defense of an idea.
So, when he is saying "Horde Apologist", he is not taking the position that people who hold that view are in the wrong and need to say sorry and make up for it. He is referring to the people who are arguing against him. Just pro/con.
I'm only mentioning that because the comments section of that article showed that a lot of people thought he was saying that the Horde needs to apologize, and that makes it sound like he's just biased from the get go.
...thoughts? I wouldn't mind hearing from others on this.
*Also, to the moderators, I don't know specifically Wowhead's policy on linking to other sites. I noticed a few people had done it before, and there didn't seem to be any problem, so, I proceeded. If there are any problems with that, you just let me know.
Post by
Queggy
The writer of the articles seems to forget that the Orcs were once under the command of demons and power crazed Warlocks . . . I personally think that this article is an Alliance players attempt at protecting their honor.
:|
Post by
Ganit
I like Wrynn for the most part. A lot of people claim he's one-dimensional, but I argue that he's responding the way a LOT of people would. Honestly, if I ran into a member of the Forsaken, or an Orc, I'd shoot first and ask questions later. The only members of the Horde that I probably wouldn't have a predisposition to kill would be the Blood Elves. The rest of 'em look like monsters, and Varian Wrynn is doing what humans do, and have always done, to monsters--killing them!
Besides, I just want to go back to the good ol' days when the Horde was a badass, evil group and the Alliance was defending humanity. Keep the Horde playable but keep it evil, too.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Supremacy
Its stupid to actually believe there is someone right and someone who isn't, both factions have their share of those who are "good" and those who are "bad".
The only guilty here are the Old Hatreds from the Second War, it doesn't allow both orcs and humans to see beyond, to see that they are now part of this new world that the end of the Alliance of Lordaeron have brought them.
And about Varian Wrynn: A true King fights to defend his people, not to destroy his enemy.
The rest of 'em look like monsters, and Varian Wrynn is doing what humans do, and have always done, to monsters--killing them!
Thats a fair example of a human (probably) who can't see beyong :P
Edit :And yes, the article is Alliance Biased.
I don't think the article was really looking for who's right or wrong, at least in a cosmic sense, or anything. The article, as I read it, was more along the lines of examining whether Varian's actions are justified.
And as far as saying a true king fights to defend his people instead of destroying his enemy...that's a little...that's not all that fleshed out. The article, I think, points out that Varian Wrynn has been personally witness to (what he sees as) the uncompromising treachery of the orcs.
Part of defending your people is not ignoring what you've seen yourself. And if you have seen that orcs have, for example, destroyed your kingdom, murdered your family, etc, than you would be a fool to not at least take that into consideration. A rough analogy, I think, would be how the Forsaken view the Scarlet Crusade. Let's say one day that they're forced to partner with them, or something. I doubt Sylvanas will be so willing to forget those past slights.
I think Varian would probably be helped if he just had the same opportunity Thrall did. Specifically, to just meet one - just one - orc that didn't immediately betray or try to kill him.
That would help both sides.
Post by
Ganit
Haha.
My point wasn't that he's right in the most enlightened sense, it was just to counter the people claiming he's too "simple," that he lacks any sort of character depth. Maybe his back story is a little forced (I'm not THAT up on lore) but I think he's behaving in a way a lot of people would.
I guess what I mean is that Varian Wrynn is behaving in the way a real person could.
Post by
Patty
He is very narrow minded still, I would argue.
He has seen a lot of bad things in his lifetime, atrocities et cetera. But so has Thrall. The main human who he saw as good was killed and decapitated, with her head being thrown at Thrall by another human.
Thrall has attempted to work things out, but he is quite a walkover with Garrosh. And Garrosh, well he is an even bigger $%^&*! than Varian. However, this all makes pretty good storylines. :D
Saurfang and Thrall apologise for their acts, but Thrall does not act on them. If Saurfang doesn't cleave Garrosh I will cry, and Thrall does need to grow a backbone, that I agree with.
He is so afraid of another war he is hiding in his throne room hoping it will go away, and he needs to act, pretty quickly.
Post by
Supremacy
He is very narrow minded still, I would argue.
He has seen a lot of bad things in his lifetime, atrocities et cetera. But so has Thrall. The main human who he saw as good was killed and decapitated, with her head being thrown at Thrall by another human.
Thrall has attempted to work things out, but he is quite a walkover with Garrosh. And Garrosh, well he is an even bigger $%^&*! than Varian. However, this all makes pretty good storylines. :D
Saurfang and Thrall apologise for their acts, but Thrall does not act on them. If Saurfang doesn't cleave Garrosh I will cry, and Thrall does need to grow a backbone, that I agree with.
He is so afraid of another war he is hiding in his throne room hoping it will go away, and he needs to act, pretty quickly.
Okay...I think we can all agree that Garrosh is, at best, not the person you'd want to send as a diplomat. Too easy to see him trying to pimp slap an ambassador.
But as far as the Thrall/Varian comparison, I think the point isn't so much that Thrall went through a similar experience as it is that at least Thrall saw one person who didn't act like every orc was a monster. Taretha treated him with some dignity. That matters. That matters a lot.
Varian, on the other hand, has been openly betrayed, attacked, and victimized by nearly every orc he's come across.
I think one thing that makes this interesting is the fact that they went through similar experiences, but they weren't exactly the same. So, you can see what a difference just one person makes. One wonders what would have become of Thrall if he hadn't met Taretha.
And honestly? I would really, really, like to see Thrall put Garrosh in his place.
Hard
. A friend of mine who played the old Warcraft games mentioned that Thrall is not exactly the pushover people have been seeing as of late. Something about him having a pretty violent side. I recall someone mentioned a novel or some such where he destroyed a city?
I do think it's important for it to be Thrall who checks Garrosh. Publicly, too. The orcs need to place their faith in one leader. If Saurfang did it, while it would be very funny, it wouldn't unite the orcs as a whole.
But you're right.
This all makes for some good readin'.
Post by
Patty
I agree with your post totally, but I think Taretha's death wasn't on the most diplomatic terms...I wanted them to half half orc babiez D:
Post by
166613
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ArgentSun
It's not badly written. I think the general justification is okay, as I have agreed that Varian probably just sees the things differently that we do. There are a few little things I don't like...
The very title "Warchief" is said to be an ancient title of the Orcs. However, current lore suggests that the title had fallen out of use, and was only taken up again by Rend Blackhand as a tool by Gul'dan to unite the clans as an army of darkness and death
The paragraph moves on to explain how the usage of the title could be seen as an offensive symbol to the humans. This is incorrect. The human race has no way of knowing if Thrall had taken the title as part of Doomhammer's legacy, or if it's a normal orcish title, given to the supreme ruler. It's a lot easier to assume the latter.
The Warsong Clan first got entangled in Ashenvale by marching into it armed for war, with no idea of who was there or whether anyone else had prior claim to the lumber or the land. Horde apologists will argue that they didn't know it was taken, but this is hardly a legitimate claim.
The war in Ashenvale has been going on for a little too long. The Horde needs the lumber to survive, the Night Elves claim it's theirs by right, and neither fraction makes attempts for diplomacy. I am thinking the Ashenvale Outriders enjoy slaughtering Horde in their woods just as much as the Horde does. And won't bother sending an emissary to look for a peaceful way out. After all, if they hated this little war so much, they'd try something to stop it, instead of
only
fight.
The Wrathgate
Key point missing - not only alliance soldiers died there. Quite a few members of the Horde also suffered because of the poison. And second point - Varian had no way of not seeing Varimathras' body in Sylvanas' chambers, during his encounter with Thrall. He just decided that the RAS was the only figure behind the betrayal.
It was Garrosh who escalated, insulting Varian and his people to his face. Even then, when Varian challenged him, he did not take the first strike. That was Garrosh.
I could easily argue that it was easier for Varian to defend himself, than to attack. Strategically easier.
Either way the end result for the members of the Alliance is the same - they have died painfully and gone extinct as a race
Wait, what? Extinct? Who?
Garrosh will continue to flex his power, and he will continue to attract followers who believe in the Bloody, Proud, arrogant Horde
There is absolutely no evidence that Garosh is gaining support. I believe he is very much loner in his beliefs, and Thrall bears with him just because he is Grom's son.
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Supremacy
It's not badly written. I think the general justification is okay, as I have agreed that Varian probably just sees the things differently that we do. There are a few little things I don't like...
The Warsong Clan first got entangled in Ashenvale by marching into it armed for war, with no idea of who was there or whether anyone else had prior claim to the lumber or the land. Horde apologists will argue that they didn't know it was taken, but this is hardly a legitimate claim.
The war in Ashenvale has been going on for a little too long. The Horde needs the lumber to survive, the Night Elves claim it's theirs by right, and neither fraction makes attempts for diplomacy. I am thinking the Ashenvale Outriders enjoy slaughtering Horde in their woods just as much as the Horde does. And won't bother sending an emissary to look for a peaceful way out. After all, if they hated this little war so much, they'd try something to stop it, instead of
only
fight.
I don't think that's completely fair. If the people of Azeroth could solve their own problems, then a lot of us would be out of a job. We all owe our fancy flying steeds and vast stockpiles of gold and gems to the fact that no one on Azeroth - or Outland - seems to be able to do something as simple as...well, if you've finished the tail end of the quests for the Curse of Stalvan, you'll know where I'm going with this.
In all seriousness, though, I don't think we can use the fact that neither side in Ashenvale has moved to stop this as the basis of any kind of blame. Just because we've been doing this for years doesn't mean they have. Honestly, I don't even know how much time has passed in game since the first time we stepped into it and today. Could just be a few months.
The Wrathgate
Key point missing - not only alliance soldiers died there. Quite a few members of the Horde also suffered because of the poison. And second point - Varian had no way of not seeing Varimathras' body in Sylvanas' chambers, during his encounter with Thrall. He just decided that the RAS was the only figure behind the betrayal.
No need to mince words. They didn't just suffer. A lot of Horde soldiers died at the Wrathgate. Saurfang the Younger being one of them. But the fact of the matter is that the attack came from the Horde side. Yes, it was Putress and his Royal Apothecary Society, but up until that point, they had been a well respected body of the Forsaken.
I guess my point is this. Two teams playing ball. Team X. Team Y. A member of Team Y betrays us all, killing lots of people in Team X. And Team Y. Even if it was that one person, Team Y's hands are not clean in that matter. Especially if Team X & Y weren't really on good terms to begin with.
As for deciding the Royal Apothecary Society was behind things instead of Varimathras...what if he had decided Varimathras was behind this? I mean, he knows that Varimathras works for Sylvanas.
My point being that this was just a bad situation for the Horde. If we're assigning blame, they are seriously on the defensive, here.
It was Garrosh who escalated, insulting Varian and his people to his face. Even then, when Varian challenged him, he did not take the first strike. That was Garrosh.
I could easily argue that it was easier for Varian to defend himself, than to attack. Strategically easier.
Do you mean easier from a combat perspective, or for diplomacy's sakes?
Because if you're talking about diplomacy, I don't think it'd be as easy to argue that Varian was trying to subtly provoke Garrosh into attacking him. And even if he was, there are certain things that you just don't do.
You know, like drawing your weapons on a king.
And then attacking him.
With the intent to kill.
On what looked to be like a diplomatic mission.
Varian was not the aggressor, there. He said "What are
they
doing here?" Which is fair, I think, given the circumstances. Garrosh then called him a coward. Which, is, okay, sure, most people agree Garrosh is kind of a jerk, so that's his thing. But drawing weapons and attacking is waaaay over the line.
And I expected more from Thrall. That was kind of disappointing.
Either way the end result for the members of the Alliance is the same - they have died painfully and gone extinct as a race
Wait, what? Extinct? Who?
I think - think - that he is saying that the end result of the Alliance will be the same if they are destroyed by Arthas/Yogg-Saron/The Burning Legion or if they are destroyed by the Horde. Specifically, I think this writer just forgot to use the word "will", to let us know that this is future tense:
will
have died painfully and gone extinct.
Tricky business, that.
Post by
85162
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Supremacy
Varian Wrynn has good reasons to be $%^&ed at the Horde.
But that does not mean he has a free pass to ignore a threat to THE WORLD just because the Horde will be fighting against it.
The writer of that article kinda ticked me off when they ignored Wrynn basically saying he'd rather the world was destroyed (or whatever the Old Gods want to do) than work with the Horde.
Or, if you want to say that he doubts that the threat is real, then he's doubting the word of the brother of King Magni.
Either way, he didn't make a wise decision.
I didn't actually read it that way, in that he was willing to let the world be destroyed instead of teaming up with the Horde. From what I picked up, it seemed that he felt the Horde was just as much a threat to the Alliance as the Burning Legion or the Scourge. Seeing as how every encounter he has had with the Horde - orcs in particular - involved them either slaughtering someone in his family, betraying his trust, making him fight to the death for amusement, or trying to destroy the world, I can understand why he thinks that.
I don't agree with him on all counts, but I don't really think it's as simple as "Varian is just some short-sighted hothead who's gonna destroy the world because he can't deal with orcs."
Besides, in all fairness, the last time he okayed teaming up with the Alliance, that...that didn't go so well.
Post by
85162
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Supremacy
My thoughts are basically this: why deal with an entirely new threat of unknown power when you have the option of working with someone and remaining with an old threat of known power?
It's not as simple as him being a short-sighted hothead, I know, but the way he acts sure make him seem like one. If he was known to get visions of the future, then I might be more willing to allow it to slide, but Wrynn is basically a normal human born into extraordinary circumstances.
If things went bad, then he should have chatted with Thrall about it.
Hell, many things likely
could
be solved by Varian and Thrall just having a nice, long chat without the guys who always seem to screw things up.
Yes, I think things would be well served without Garrosh standing about. Not exactly a diplomat, no. But, I do agree that Varian having at least one encounter with an orc where they're not literally out to get him would help. Thrall, at least, had the chance to meet Taretha. That changed a lot for him.
Also, if I understand what you're saying, you're suggesting that Varian could team up with the Horde, and then if something bad happens, talk to Thrall after that?
I don't think that would work. For one, the last time the Alliance teamed up with the Horde, there was that little Wrathgate incident. Yes, the Horde lost soldiers and heroes, too, but that attack came from within the Horde camp. A rebellious faction of the Horde, but, still.
After something like that happens, if something else goes bad, there is no "chatting".
And to answer your question, why deal with an entirely new threat of unknown power when you have the option of working with someone and remaining with an old threat of known power?
I think it boils down to past experiences. It's more a "Why deal with an entirely new threat of unknown power by teaming up with a faction that has betrayed you time and time again?"
Let's say I have 10,000 men. The evil creatures shows up, threatening to rain devastation from the heavens. Poison the earth, black out the sky, dry out the oceans. Whole nine yards. I can either fight him alone, or fight him with an ally who also has 10,000 men. Except that the ally just betrayed me last week...while we were teaming up to fight a common foe. My past experiences with them have shown them to betray my people, and frequently try to destroy the world. Also, their diplomats attacked me during the meeting.
Would you agree to team up with them? Knowing that the fate of your people, and the world was at stake? Even if they promised to be good this time?
But no one's really mentioning the main issue, here.
How the hell was Garrosh even able to attack Varian in Dalaran in the first place? Sanctuary, my eye.
Post by
336144
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Morec0
Varian is racist and needs anger management cousling like dwarfs need AA meetings.
Seriously, they do.
...
Somewhere in Ironforge:
Dwarf: AA is for quiters!
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