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[3.3] Intro to Death Knight Tanking
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378676
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104555
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Post by
Eleazer
Is there a way to update the initial page to take into account the Howling Blast glyph? With the glyph IT is no longer used at all in the tanking rotation unless you want to randomly throw one out there. Also I would like to reiterate my claim that PS is not necessary for Howling Blast tanking. I understand why you can use it, just stating that if it's a waste for Frost DPS it's also a waste for Frost tanking. Granted I am not tanking 25 man raids yet, but the point is still the same. I understand that it's to help add a static threat as opposed to the bulk threat, but threat is rarely an issue I have faced so far. Occasionally I run into problems, but that is when I am severly out geared and miss on a howling blast lol. Yes, I need more hit.
Finally, Despite the many assertions that Morbidity is a must. I don't see it. How often as a frost tank am I going to redrop DnD? Is it really necessary when those 3 points can be spent in runic power regeneration or added strength?
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334662
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Post by
Nystali
That's assuming that everyone is using the HB glyph. While I do think frost tank should, that's not the place of this intro guide. A lot of these rotations are put in a very simple and basic form so people can hopefully understand the mechanics and reasons for performing certain rotations. Later on when they have that understanding (like you for example), they can say, "Wait, I don't need IT and PS... I'll just use HB." (I did mention the glyph and a rotation just using HB as the disease spreader because of the glyph, it is a little buried though)
As for the Morbidity debate. It all depends on tanking style. Some folks have learned to always use DnD and their finishing points are best used there even for a frost tank. While I think there is something less elegant in always using DnD, its a matter of style. If it works and you hold aggro/threat and don't get caught in sticky situations because of it, then it is still legitimate. Lynri only mentioned a preference for morbidity for designated OTs. I agree with the logic if that is what role your guild/raid group designates for their OTs.
I think the problem here is that you want this and other guides to be the definitive only way to tank. "Follow these instructions or else you are a deathtard!" That is not the case. I wrote this guide so other folks could better understand the mechanics of the class as I understand them. I think I'm an able tank and have a good grasp on the mechanics of the class even though I still personally have some habits I need to break. Part of that was learning all the information I put up in this intro from other posts in this forum/thread and also from personal experience.
I'd hate for other dk tanks out there to be running through a dungeon and raid mindlessly following rotations not understanding why they are using what they are. If I only put, "Here is the HB glyph, use it. And only use this rotation!" then I think I'd be promoting the creation of a whole lot more deathtards.
Take an example that doesn't fall into the norm: I usually tank live side for Gothik. When pulling the little guys, I'll just fire off two quick IT on each one and then BB (usually dead by then). If someone who was locked into a "HB to pull" mentality tried to pull with HB, they'd not hit the second little guy. Now, by saving their HB cooldowns for say, when a death knight and/or rider pops, they have some strong aoe threat able to be generated. It is that kind of flexibility that not only come from experience of a fight, but understanding of all the tools of your class.
Post by
Eleazer
I think the problem here is that you want this and other guides to be the definitive only way to tank. "Follow these instructions or else you are a deathtard!" That is not the case. I wrote this guide so other folks could better understand the mechanics of the class as I understand them. I think I'm an able tank and have a good grasp on the mechanics of the class even though I still personally have some habits I need to break. Part of that was learning all the information I put up in this intro from other posts in this forum/thread and also from personal experience.
I'd hate for other dk tanks out there to be running through a dungeon and raid mindlessly following rotations not understanding why they are using what they are. If I only put, "Here is the HB glyph, use it. And only use this rotation!" then I think I'd be promoting the creation of a whole lot more deathtards.
Nystali,
Apparently, you misunderstood my post. I wanted it added into the main tanking column as an alternative way to tank. Now granted you did state that the glyph should be used by every frost tank, then why not mention it in the intro to tanking? I keep IT on my bar for the simple reason it's easier to pull single targets when my taunt is on cool down or like you said for specific situation. There are a dozen ways to tank, and I am aware of that and not looking for a cookie cutter mold. As you can see I disagree with Morbidity, but agree that it has it's uses. I disagree with Plague Strike, but agree that it can be used.
I think Howling Blast pulls are the best way for a frost tank to go, and find it easier. Especially when dealing with AOE happy dps. Last night I ran with a Frost tank that was doing the IT/PS/Pestilence/HB pulls, and since as a Frost dps I would open with Howling Blast we were fighting on aggro, about halfway through he just opened with Howling and then did PS/pestilence and we had no problems.
Granted you still need to use your head. I was just asking that it be posted on the first page with the rest of the rotations. As many Frost Tanks find it to be a more efficient use of runes and threat.
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Post by
Nystali
Eleazer... please don't tell me that you do spend part of your time tanking, but then you go out and start your rotations as a dps with HB.
Please say that's not true. I mean that's like a retnub starting with Divine Storm, a hunter starting with multi-shot, warlocks starting with seed or rain of fire, mages starting with blizzard or arcane nova, etc. It something you're not supposed to do as a dps and its something that as a healer I hate seeing and have to waste mana compensating for, and as a tank I admonish my dps for.
Edit: This of course relates to multi-mob pulls, not boss pulls.
Post by
Eleazer
Okay perhaps, I am not explaining myself clearly. I never said Howling Blast was the only way to tank, just that it is the simplest and easiest method of tanking, and should probably be used by beginning tanks simply because of initial aggro threat generation. IT/PS/Pest/HB is a cool down race can I get them off before someone pulls aggro, Good tanks can, bad tanks can't. I don't use the 3 step method, simply because most dps don't wait for you to get the 4 step process going. That and while waiting to get geared, my threat generation wasn't enough to offset the accidental healer pulls. As a newer tank I would highly recommend using howling blast after pulling with Dark Command or Death Grip until you get used to tanking and can pull off the rotation of IT/PS/Pest/HB which is longer and alot more difficult to pull off. Too completely dismiss the HB/OB/BB/BB RS or FS rotation because it might miss at long range is a little bit off putting. What tank is going to pull from max range with an aoe? Perhaps a newer tank might, saying it won't work all the time is like saying a Warrior should charge everyone because it generates more aggro, well we all know that doesn't work, range pull than aoe. That's Standard Tanking Philosophy. Taunt to you than Howling blast the group the sucker or IT them and then Howling Blast them. Heck, I went through an two or three pulls using solely IT because I was afraid Howling blast would aggro corresponding pats, and the dps wasn't good enough to do that much.
We could run in a giant circle talking about specific pulls, isolation pulls, LoC pulls, but that's stuff you learn as a tank progress when the point of this thread is tanking basics, and Howling Blast tanking is by far the simplest of all the frost tanking methods.
On a side note. The Blood Tanking link only gives me till lvl 70 does that mean the final 10 are free for me to choose. I wanted to try Blood Tanking for the extra stamina :P
Post by
Eleazer
Eleazer... please don't tell me that you do spend part of your time tanking, but then you go out and start your rotations as a dps with HB.
Please say that's not true. I mean that's like a retnub starting with Divine Storm, a hunter starting with multi-shot, warlocks starting with seed or rain of fire, mages starting with blizzard or arcane nova, etc. It something you're not supposed to do as a dps and its something that as a healer I hate seeing and have to waste mana compensating for, and as a tank I admonish my dps for.
Um, Nystali, Starting with Howling Blast is common for frost dps. It's one of the recommended methods of DPS just ask Lynri. Granted if I am dealing with a warrior tank, or a druid I don't start off with Howling Blast unless I trust their tanking abilities. Granted your knowledge of Howling Blast must be lacking because none of those aoe's affect the rest of your cycle the way Howling Blast does. Howling Blast when glyphed applies an essential debuff for Frost DPS, but hey it's not just me talking if you want I can link you this thread that talks all about Howling Blast cycles. I believe it's on this forum :P
According to the 3.1 Frost Dps thread here Howling Blast Glyphed leaves you with this rotation.
HB/OB/BS/BS/FS/FS/BT/OB/OB/OB/BS/BS/FS runic dump and recycle.
And Nystali don't tell me you tank all the time, and don't attempt to understand how your dps and healers rotations work. That's like a ret pali leaving on righteous fury and not understanding why he is pulling aggro off or screaming at a Holy Pali to HoT you up :P (yes I know you are holy pali, just messing with you)
Please don't talk down to me Nystali, I understand my class, and how to dps appropriately. I was a guild and raid leader for a long time gave it up because I didn't want the added pressure outside my real life. When I became a raid and guild leader, I made it my job to read up on every class and find out how they work together, my belief was every spec of every class had a purpose that can be used in a raid or guild. Granted I was unemployed at the time so I had the time to do it lol. I have also spent alot of time studying and debating with Lynri the finer points of Frost dps and tanking. I don't claim to know everything or agree with everything posted (Bladed Armor/Morbidity/Plague Strike being my main 3 points of debate with Lynri), but when presented with a logical well founded argument I will concede, as I have with the idea that plague strike can be used in a rotation with frost dps and tanking.
Post by
Nystali
Ack! Pulls with Dark Command? One of my pet peeves with any class tank. I guess that is another style argument though. I just don't like it because I don't consider it solid threat though I suppose it does buy you a few seconds. As alternatives to taunt pulling, I would almost consider a pull like:
IT->(they gather up)->HB->BB->BB->(PS or BT->OB)
(I put this here for anyone else following the thread who would be curious, I'm sure you already have your various way to pull that don't involve taunting)
Howling Blast rotations maybe be very simple, but I don't think the concept of glyphs to be basic. There is a lot of theorycrafting behind which glyphs can/should/have to be used. Take holy paladins for example, you either glyph for bigger heals by using seal of light, or you glyph to be more mana efficient by using seal of wisdom and there is theorycrafting behind both. Yes, we agree that HB glyph is most powerful for deep frost specs, but again, I don't think a intro guide should demand that you glyph a specific way and if it did, it would open to huge arguments of theorycrafting. Something which I'd like to avoid for an intro. Theorycrafting sends many new/casual players running. I do try to state as often as I can that the cookie-cutter base builds that I put can still be modified to your liking.
Again, I do mention the glyph, and I show a rotation using the glyph. I leave that to the player to make the leap in logic or at least read this far into the thread.
---
As for the question about the blood tank build (which I hope is correct for a base build, I did the best I can do without personal experience and what I could gather from other threads and haven't read any complaints yet). All of the builds I list, except for the bunch at the end of the frost section, are base builds. I tried to go through the tree to get the bare minimum of what a deep tree could look like without even touching the other trees except for the base 5/5/5.
So with blood tree, there are 10 custom points to put where you would like. I think the best compliment of deep blood is the unholy tree (morbidity, ravenous dead and then you could do Imp Icy Touch and have one last point for Hysteria to give to a dps for burn cycles).
Post by
Nystali
Granted if I am dealing with a warrior tank, or a druid I don't start off with Howling Blast unless I trust their tanking abilities.
Right there proves my point. As a dps, you don't start out with snap aoe on a group ever unless you trust and know 100% that your tank is using a method that will guarantee you won't pull from the tank or fight for aggro on any of the mobs in the group. If you do, you could lead to a wipe which as a dps is bad and unprofessional in a group.
Your anecdote said you dealt with a tank that obviously wasn't using a pulling method that allows you do that, and in the end, you forced him to adjust which took half an instance which made the healer work harder for half the instance. If you had caused wipes because of this, you would have been labeled a deathtard and booted.
Even if Lynri always starts up with HB, I'm sure he gives it a few seconds for the tank's initial rotation to finish (paladin consecrate is down, warrior has clapped, druid has swiped with all the mobs in front of him, DK has dropped DnD and a few seconds have ticked or has cast HB or one or two BBs) before starting his rotation. That's actually part of the problem why I don't completely drop my IT->PS starter rotation completely now that I think of it when I DPS. It allows me to start working on the initial mob before I go into an AoE rotation.
Post by
Nystali
And Nystali don't tell me you tank all the time, and don't attempt to understand how your dps and healers rotations work. That's like a ret pali leaving on righteous fury and not understanding why he is pulling aggro off or screaming at a Holy Pali to HoT you up :P (yes I know you are holy pali, just messing with you)
Haha, if you screamed at me to hot you up I'd give you gift of the naaru, that's why I rolled a draenei! Of course, if it was on cooldown, then I'd scream "noob" back. ;)
Post by
Eleazer
Well, I am an orc so if you hit me with with gift of the Naaru well I would freak out. I used to be an alliance, raided, ran a guild as alliance BC, but went horde in WotLK and haven't looked back. I have found 3 things to be true about the horde. 1) There aren't as many kids or drama. 2) The ratio of bad players to good players is about the same just less players on horde. 3) The cussing out, you suck, I can't believe you did that, you idiot is replaced by a kick and ignore lol. All in all I like it better. However there are fewer people willing to talk shop with you on a regular basis, most good horde players think they are God's gift to their class. I do remember the days of raiding on my enhance shaman and being told to drop healing totem and use my Gift of the Naaru to help the healer out during instance runs.
Ah the beauty of running with Alliance lol, or healing on my CoH Holy Priest, and being told to keep renew on the the tank so he wouldn't die (for those who don't know, per WoTLK and even now Renew is a mana drain, and is rarely used by most priests as almost every other spell we have is better for the same amount of mana, plus it was so weak in BC that it was a pointless cast) when I wouldn't do it stating that it wasn't worth the mana I was told. You ain't a paladin so use your all of your HoT's. I was confused and stated I only have one. Which got me called a noob, because and this is a direct quote "Everyone knows priests have all the healing spells" Now this was in a ten man ZG raid. It was right around this point I decided to give up healing.
However this is a tanking thread and I am off topic so I will stop ;p. You are correct Nystali, in that IT is probably a better initial threat pull and would allow me to keep my CD on my taunt for emergencies. I am probably stuck on the taunt pull from when taunt was a soft pull which would pull just one of a mob as opposed to making a cast which is a higher aggro radius. Old School Raider here :P
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294097
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