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Why do people expect to roll for shards?
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Post by
Immaterial
If an enchanter offers to DE the items in an instance run, I will expect to be allowed to roll on shards at the end. I'm not so keen to give up perfectly good vendor gold to pay the repair bills for the run just so the enchanter can make money at my expense.
If the enchanter says nothing, and DE's items that he won on the greed rolls, that's fine. He won the item, and he can do what he wants with it.
If it's a guild run, it might be a little different, of course.
Shirash, voice of reason. This behaviour gets a big +1 from me.
Some of the other loot/DE ideas in this thread are excellent in principle, but require an established level of trust between players that you don't generally see in PuGs. This way, there's no chance of anyone 'forgetting about the DE rolls', as it's using game mechanics. Think there's some game theory in there somewhere about risk vs reward...
Post by
MrFredII
As a herbalist I work this way.
My guild lets its members keep herbs, ores, skins. So if its a guild run I take turns with any other herbalists gathering herbs. I hang on to them and use them for potions for the guild, leveling both my herbalism and alchemy which ultimately benefits everyone.
If its a pug I ask if people want to share in the herbs we get. If so then I and any other herbalists round robin on the harvesting and everyone divides up the herbs at the end. In this situation, I, by prior agreement, subtract any herbs used for pots I make for the group from those to be shared. Since I've usually brought pots for the group and have offered to make pots from their mats for free, often the group simply lets me take the herbs.
If I am a pug to another guilds raid, as opposed to a 5 man, I generally offer the herbs to the raid leader. After all if I'm pugged into the raid, its almost certain that it is content my guild is not raiding and being offer a slot again is more valuable to me than the herbs I might get.
Post by
Terraism
Ok, lets say I am an enchanter(and I am). I benefit you with my proffesion when I DE' unneeded loot. And I ask how do you benefit me with your proffesions? Someone said that he gives potions to his group when he levels his alchemy. And after he max it, does he still gives potions to his group? I never got a single potion in a PUG , but I still continue to DE, even when proffesion is maxed. Or did I ever got a sharpening stone for example from a blacksmiter ? the answer is no. So why should I offer to benefit the party when they dont benefit me? Why do you say selfish? Is using your own proffesion for making profit selfish (I stricktly stick with the "need if need , greed if not" rule) ?
Seems strange to me. My main through vanilla and TBC was (is?) a warrior, alchemist/herbalist. If things look tight and I've got spare potions on me, PUG or guild run, I tend to hand 'em out. I'd rather finish the instance than horde the potions. And I've had *many* times, especially pre-BC, with
Mongoose Potions
, someone say "hey, I've got some spare plaguebloom, can you put together a mongoose for me?"
Over the last six weeks, I've put my warrior on hiatus and leveled up a blood elf paladin, who I'll be pushing into Wrath as my new main. He's a blacksmith. I carry a stack of
sharpening stones
and
runes of warding
on me all the time and, again, anytime I'm in an instance and it looks like it may be tetchy, I start handing 'em out. Never had anyone ask me to make them either, but then, I've only been on this guy for just under two months.
You know, I always hear about how horrible PUGs are, but I've never found them to be all that bad. Sure, you get a real monkey once in a while - I'm thinking of a priest I ran BFD with on an alt last weekend, reminded me of the fellow in the Flintlocke comic - but most people are pretty decent as long as you treat 'em well.
In any case, it seems that pretty much everyone agrees that "Need on upgrades, greed the rest," is fair, and that enchanters can then go ahead and DE if they win it. Seems like the discussion really hinges on whether or not it's fair for people to
expect
an enchanter to DE loot they win (which, really, is what the pass/shard/roll system amounts to - just in reverse order because of the binding nature of the items).
And you know what? It's
not fair
to expect that. No, it doesn't cost the enchanter anything to DE, but it cost him to get it there in the first place. 'course, he's there already, so what it really boils down to is that it's not fair... it's just neighbourly.
And maybe it's just me, but I like my server. I plan to keep on being a good neighbour.
Post by
Agorist
Slightly off-topic but, note that this problem exists only because of the "special" property of DE as a nonmarketable skill for soulbound items.
The entire roll-on-shard scenario only exists because you cannot DE via the trade window, which IMO is totally ridiculous.
- You can enchant someone's soulbound item via trade window
- You could apply spike/weapon chain/etc to soulbound item in trade (prior to patch)
- You can lockpick without trading an item
Please Blizz allow DE via trade window!
-Place item in "will not be traded slot"
-Enchanter puts DE in their slot
-Both click trade and person gets a "bag of enchant mats" container item and loses their DE'd item.
Simple. Why not?
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Post by
Siindre
I am an enchanter aswell, but I never tell people in dungeons that I am because I would rather greed it for my own gain then spend half my time in a dungeon DE'ing for other people...
Post by
Supremacy
*Shrugs*
I understand why the original poster felt a little annoyed at being treated like a "shard machine". A couple of things, though.
It can be trying to just be expected to do something for the beneift of others at (what can be) a potential cost to yourself just because you're in a group. Of course, that's kind of part of being in a group. I'm sure not all mages like being expected to just dole out refreshments to everyone they happen to meet, for example. It's not entirely similar, but I think you get my point.
More to the point, though. Someone else stated the obvious rather eloquently. Simply put, without the help of whatever group you're in, you wouldn't even have the opportunity for a lot of disenchanting materials. Unless you can solo whatever instances you're running, you're relying on them as much as they're relying on you. Everyone's pitching in to beat the instance. It's a team effort.
And since it is a team effort, you can't really operate like you would solo. There are certain expectations people have, namely, that everyone's in this together. It's a little divisive if you're only looking out for yourself. If something drops, and it's just going to be vendored? Then it doesn't benefit the team as a whole to not disenchant it.
And, really, saying that you need the shards to level up is also a little selfish. You need the shards to perform enchantments. Yes, performing enchantments well help you level up, but (prior to the expansion) you only needed the shards for the enchantment. What if your teammates wanted an enchantment, too? They could buy the materials off the auction house - as could you - or they could do the same thing you're doing...trying to get a freebie. And besides, there are other professions that use enchanting materials. The
imbued netherweave bag
, for example. And even imbued netherweave.
No one is really entitled to anything, especially in a PUG (which is what I assume you're mostly referring to). But you have to understand that if you're in a group situation and specifically taking actions that just benefit you, then people are going to get annoyed.
Would you really like it if you were in a group with a mage who refused to provide food/water to teammates? I mean, whatever his reason, I know that I wouldn't really care for that kind of openly selfish behavior.
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Post by
Croz730
This is a very interesting topic. I must say i did not read through the 5+ pages of post but my thoughts are this.
As an enchanter myself I usually roll the shards off in my 5 mans. I never Pug so the people i am giving these to are my guildmates. Would rather them have them for future enchants to help us out anyways. Since we now need these shards to purchase our enchants my rule is, if someone wants an enchant that i do not have but could get from the vendor, they supply the shards for me to buy it. That way at some point i will get the ones most people need, will not be wasting my own shards on them, and all those shards i "give away" in instances in a way get returned to me.
However, i do think that not giving away shards in a PUG is an interesting idea, i mean sure the group cleared to and killed the boss however if there was an ore node behind the boss would the miner in the group then roll the ores he gets off of it because the group cleared the boss to get to it? Most likely not, so how is disenchanting the item that no one needs any different?
Just my 2c
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