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discussions on hit/crit/expertise
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Post by
ignis86
Theory from my research on WoWWikki:
To determine your crit cap (druid yellow melee dmg vs raid boss)-
Assume we are talking vs a raid boss and you are behind him. This means you have only 3 options with special attacks: miss, dodge, and hit/crit. So take your targets chance to dodge (I believe 8% for raid bosses) and your chance to miss (9% vs raid bosses) subtract it from 100% and divide by 2 (because your crit cannot exceed your hit). Your crit cap would then be 41.5%
Once you are hit capped- miss is no longer an option. This would mean you only deal with dodge pushing your cap to 46%, and assuming then that you cap expertise, your highest possible crit cap would be 50%.
So based on this, 142 hit and 125 expertise (assuming bosses dodge 8%) would allow you to reach the highest possible crit chance of 50%.
White damage is a whole other issue, and very complicated.
Your crit cap-
{100% - } /2
Mine looks like this-
{100% - } /2 = 47.37%
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ignis86
Crit is what gets wasted beyond your cap, not hit. And On those bosses expertise becomes more valuable than hit. However, looking at available dps gear for druids with expertise, it is not worth stacking to cap due to such a huge loss of other stats. There are only 3 items worth getting for expertise (as feral):
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34472
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30055
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34573
bringing you to a total of 74 expertise.
I did not, and prolly will not figure in the table for from-the-front dps, since most of the time you will be behind, and it is far more complicated a calculation. But you are correct in your figuring (tho exact parry/dodge/block are not confirmed).
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ignis86
From a tanking PoV, you are forgetting that it also adds armor and less useful attack power. But since feral can hit armor cap (about 35k) pretty easy you are right in saying that other stats are more useful for a tank. It is pretty much consensus that for raid tanking Stamina is king. But because Agi adds armor and dodge and attack power it is next on the list for suvival (after pure +dodge). Hit and Expertise at the top for threat.
Post by
Corveroth
As a note, the armor cap when being hit by a level 70 attacker is 31673, while the armor cap against a level 73 attacker is 35880- not 33k as you said.
Post by
ignis86
i said about i know it was a lil higher than that but i was just stating (actually my brother made that last post using my account)
edited
Post by
Bats
Ok so I'm gonna sorta nit-pick on some of the posts in this thread cause there seems to me to be a bit of misinformation floating around here.
As someone alrdy pointed out, mobs can dodge from behind (common theory is they have eyes in the back of their head.)
In the concerns of combo pt generation from crit, there are instances where in the range of 40-45% crit that you can have 4-5 pts before rip has even gotten halfway through its duration. Hence any more crit than this would not really see any increase in dmg output from combo pts.
The optimal crit/ap graph is Thossk's dps methodology which can be found here:
http://druid.wikispaces.com/ToskksDPSGearMethod
A couple ppl have stated that agility is useful for the armor it gives. Agility is useful for two things for tanking druids: it gives dodge which increases our avoidance and for crit to boost threat per attack and generate rage through the talent.
I apologize for being critical of the posts here but I don't want this misinformation to spread. I believe misinformation is like a disease so please take measures to not contract this disease and end up spreading it to others. Thank You.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ignis86
@Bats
...Your post is mostly irrelevant to the topic at hand. and if you are going to be critical.... you aughta point out specifically what you're disputing.
Combo points were never mentioned, and the fact that dodge is included was not disputed either. This discussion is about finding your effective crit cap.
Post by
Bats
Well I was not trying to be on topic in the first place....as said in my post just clearing up some misinformation i saw.
I tried not to be completely specific since that would almost seem like I was calling ppl out which wasn't what I was trying to do.
On topic (somewhat) I found the crit "cap" information to be very informative since I'd never read anything along those lines in my internet wanderings.
Post by
ignis86
Callin ppl out or not, you wont hurt my feeling, but if there is misinformation, it only helps to know that if i know what it is thats wrong so it can be researched further.
Post by
wingman
Theres no crit cap.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Celdhyrean
Assuming that your crit chance cannot exceed your normal hit chance (am finding it hard to verify that somewhere), then it is logical to assume that it has a limiting value.That's the point i'd also really like to get confirmation for, as i haven't read anything like that before.
Actually, the wowwiki examples seem to say the contrary (crit can be capped by miss/block/glancing/... , but takes precedence over hit), so if anyone has some data to determine who's right, it'd be highly appreciated. (refer to
http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table
, example 2)
Crit cap is also discussed in the "Glancing Blows" article (
http://www.wowwiki.com/Glancing_blow
, Glancing Blows implications)
(methodology would be to repeat exactly what they did in the first part of the example, ie dual wielder with no hit and lots of crit (30%+) attacking a boss from the front)
Post by
ignis86
Taken from Wowwiki
under the
crit
catagory (copied and pasted with only underlining and bolding added
What's better, +to hit or +crit?
In principle they are equal. Which is better depends on circumstances. An increase in hit rate will usually yield a constant level of damage, whereas a high crit chance gives a spiky, more random damage distribution over time. An important factor is whether there are procs related to either hits or critical hits. Also,
both ratings have caps
(which are not fixed to a certain % but rather
depend on multiple factors such as hit chance, enemy's level and defense rating
). To hit can only be used to counter the base chance to miss (5% for one-hand users without any off-hand weapon, 9% for two-handers and 24% for dualwielders), whereas the
crit chance cannot become higher than the hit chance.
If a dualwielder attacks a target with a high chance to dodge or parry the attacker can lose crit chance because the attack table is full.
Post by
ignis86
Theres no crit cap.
evidence so far points to the contrarty. Assuming that your crit chance cannot exceed your normal hit chance (am finding it hard to verify that somewhere), then it is logical to assume that it has a limiting value. (probably about the 46% ish mark, assuming you have maxed +hit and + expertise)
@Bats
Assuming your crit chance is limited, that spread sheet seems flawed a little. I will explain a bit and maybe people can see if Im going wrong somewhere.
If there is indeed crit cap then once you reach that cap agility, from a dpsing point of view, becomes a secondary stat. Ignoring for a moment the added benefits of agility (+dodge & armor) each point gives +1ap and +x Crit. Strength give 2 ap. If you have reached this crit cap, the onyl dps advantage gained from more agility is +1ap per point. Assuming the crit caps exisits it would seem that once you reach it strength becomes twice as valuable.
if you do the math and you have a MAX hit and expertise, meaning the boss cant be missed, cant be dodged, cant or parried pr anything BUT be hit... thats 50% crit cap (someone said always a .01% chance to miss, so thats still 49.995% chance to crit and imma call that 50%) .. since hit cant exceed it on the table... it can only match it.
i actually eat strength food in raids cause due to raid buffs i hit my crit cap of 47.7%... and i actually have a script now that i had made to use a formula based on my researches and it looks at your hit and expertise and tells you your current crit cap
for melee special attacks behind a boss
...
/script local u = (100 - (9 -
0
- GetCombatRatingBonus(6)) + (6.5 - GetCombatRatingBonus(24)) )/2; DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Crit Cap: "..u.." %.");
you simply edit the zero in bold to your % hit from racials/talents.
Post by
Celdhyrean
Well, the problem with that is that WoWWiki gives us two contradictory statements (refer to my post where they say that you can have only crit and no hit on the attack table), so we need some testing data now, to disprove one of the theories.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ignis86
Well, the problem with that is that WoWWiki gives us two contradictory statements (refer to my post where they say that you can have only crit and no hit on the attack table), so we need some testing data now, to disprove one of the theories.
btw that whole post you linked seems to be about white damaged... which is a WHOLE other topic i did not refer to. I made QUITE clear that i was not refering to white damage with a crit cap. this is ALL yellow damage from behind a raid boss... with a theoretical (still uncertain) dodge %. i do need to do a little more research into the bosses dodge block and parry %'s but that also changes depending on the bosses defense rating... as i believe different bosses might also have boosted or weaker defense... this is uncertain atm and ill look more into that in the next coming weeks
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