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The Future of Lordaeron
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Post by
Rankkor
I have to call you on declaring the worgen's human guises as the false ones. It was the worgen that were forced upon one's humanity rather than the other way around.
Going by that logic, it was undeath that was forced upon the humans of lordaeron. Not the other way around.
No. It was undeath forced upon a corpse. There is a difference, namely that the Forsaken were dead first.
Yeah because when arthas did the purge of stratholme everyone was already dead..................... ohh wait.
Undeath was forced upon a living person. Remember that the reason it spread so fast was because they infected grain that the living ate, and this turned them into undead. Its not like the entire kingdom died of natural causes (therefore their time had gone) and then were raised back.
I have to call you on declaring the worgen's human guises as the false ones. It was the worgen that were forced upon one's humanity rather than the other way around.
Going by that logic, it was undeath that was forced upon the humans of lordaeron. Not the other way around.
And in the end, being a worgen is more a mutation than proper species.
Ditto for the forsaken.
and one which can be suppressed with assistance from the druids, whereas undeath is more pervasive. Worgen can return to being human, and so are still human as it were rather than a wolfish hybrid
Correction: They disguise as humans but humans they are not. When killed do they stay human? nope, they reverse back to worgen. Worgen is their default form, and the human disguise is that, a disguise. When they enter battle, its always as wolves.
And if it wasn't for Krennan's concoction, they wouldn't even be able to think like humans, they'd be complete animals. They have to resort to a potion, and a magic ritual to cling to their humanity, as without these, they're little better than feral beasts.
So natural they aint, and human most definetly they aint. The main difference between worgens and forsakens, is that they found a partial cure to their condition, and a way to disguise their appereance, whereas the forsaken haven't. That's about it. Coming to think of it, worgens are worse than the forsaken, because a newly raised forsaken is fully aware, and still capable of acting like a person, but a worgen has to be heavily sedated, then drink a potion before they can act like a person and not like a beast..
The problem with this idea is that you mistake that they can alternate between forms with wearing a disguise. It's hardly the same thing.
Worgen can change back into the former selves, but also into their worgen forms
. They can be human again, but the best a Forsaken can do is pretend to be.
Once more, they're not "changing back" when they go human. Worgen is their default form, and human is the foreign one. When they die, what form do the remain? human or worgen? when they fight what form do they remain? Human or worgen?
The worgen form is their real form, and the human one is a guise they take to pretend being human again, but by default they're worgen.
As well, the real difference between these two is that the worgen are happy to work alongside the yet human Gilneans to reclaim their homes.
Yes yes, and the knights of the ebon blade are also equally willing to work alongside the living for a common goal. The reason both of these can do that, is because they had someone vouch for them so that the overwhelming majority of the world doesn't try to murder them on sight (Night elves for the worgens, Tirion Fordring for the DKs). Forsaken don't have that luxury, and therefore, every single living being in the world is trying to kill them. Even the horde killed several of the first forsaken ambassadors when they attempted to parlay to do an alliance with them.
Had the forsaken received the same special treatment that the worgens and DKs got, they would had turned out very differently. And this is a fact because DKs ARE essentially forsaken (They are undead, but with free will and sentience) and their existence is even worse than the forsaken's because DKs have the curse of blood on them, forever. And they didn't turned out so badly. Why? because they had someone show compassion to them, rather than attempt to genocide them just for existing.
Also, a Forsaken newly raised is apparently an irrational creature that the Forsaken tend to force on the front lines to fight, then give them their damned if you do choice after they calm down, as according to wowpedia:
This is due to the fact those raised by the Val'kyr who die in combat or under extreme stress, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, the remaining resurrected or given the option of joining the Forsaken or being returned to the grave.
That applies mostly to forsaken who, back when they were human, died in the heat of battle. Those rezzed in Deathkneel are perfectly rational when awakening. Plus even if forsaken start with a frenzy, its still very temporal. Worgens are permanently in a feral state where they act like beasts forever, unless they are fed by force the potion of krennan, and then made undergo the magic ritual.
Right there they have 2 very convenient tools that the forsaken were denied. Do you honestly think they wouldn't had turned out any differently if these had reversed? (Worgens with no potion or ritual. Forsaken with a potion that lets them look human, and a ritual that restores their soul)
Post by
oneforthemoney
The problem with this idea is that you mistake that they can alternate between forms with wearing a disguise. It's hardly the same thing.
Worgen can change back into the former selves, but also into their worgen forms
. They can be human again, but the best a Forsaken can do is pretend to be.
Once more, they're not "changing back" when they go human. Worgen is their default form, and human is the foreign one. When they die, what form do the remain? human or worgen? when they fight what form do they remain? Human or worgen?
The worgen form is their real form, and the human one is a guise they take to pretend being human again, but by default they're worgen.
How can their initial forms be the foreign one? It's equivalent of saying a night elf druid is really a bear, and their elven bodies are the real shapeshifted one. Or was the worgen form not originally a druidic one now? And besides, we have seen Greymane fighting as human instead of worgen in the comics:
Genn frequently hides away in his observatory in Greymane Manor, where his secret ally, Belysra, helps him control his worgen transformations and also tells him the origins of the worgen and the worgen curse. After the Cataclysm, we would see him leading some potioned worgen into battle against the Forsaken invading the shores in his human guise. You're confusing basic gameplay for lore, Rankkor.
That applies mostly to forsaken who, back when they were human, died in the heat of battle. Those rezzed in Deathkneel are perfectly rational when awakening. Plus even if forsaken start with a frenzy, its still very temporal. Worgens are permanently in a feral state where they act like beasts forever, unless they are fed by force the potion of krennan, and then made undergo the magic ritual.
Right there they have 2 very convenient tools that the forsaken were denied. Do you honestly think they wouldn't had turned out any differently if these had reversed? (Worgens with no potion or ritual. Forsaken with a potion that lets them look human, and a ritual that restores their soul)
Actually, all they need is the ritual, as shown by Greymane who didn't need to ingest the potion. As well, the Forsaken are being 'denied' nothing in this case, as there is no tool that can do the same for them hat someone has been holding back. And right there we have proven that worgen are not in a 'permenant' state of frenzy, as they have two solutions, and the druidic one is described as a partial
cure
. Forsaken have a solution to being undead, and that's going back to being dead. Is that fair? No. Is it fair to demonize the worgen because they have these options? No. The situations are similar on the surface, but hardly much deeper.
Had the forsaken received the same special treatment that the worgens and DKs got, they would had turned out very differently. And this is a fact because DKs ARE essentially forsaken (They are undead, but with free will and sentience) and their existence is even worse than the forsaken's because DKs have the curse of blood on them, forever. And they didn't turned out so badly. Why? because they had someone show compassion to them, rather than attempt to genocide them just for existing.
That being shown compassion is all the Forsaken lacked is laughable, really. They are walking corpses, and at the time? No one knew if their freedom was a temporary thing that would be taken away again by the Lich King when he regained his powers. After all, one of the Lich King's favourite tactics is infiltration and sedition. They had nothing but the word of creatures whose sole difference from the ones yet wandering the Plaguelands was that more of them were capable of intelligent speech. The Horde was willing to accept them because they had a whole sea between them and the Forsaken's armies. The Death Knights were a small paramilitary organization, and the worgen already deposed the one who had the ability to force them beneath their control. It's unfortunate that after the Forsaken defeated that which still held a grip upon them, they instead decided to ramp up their other war with blight and forced resurrections.
Yeah because when arthas did the purge of stratholme everyone was already dead..................... ohh wait.
Undeath was forced upon a living person. Remember that the reason it spread so fast was because they infected grain that the living ate, and this turned them into undead. Its not like the entire kingdom died of natural causes (therefore their time had gone) and then were raised back.
No. They died of unnatural causes (save the ones Arthas killed in Stratholme who weren't already dead I suppose), but die they did. You don't go from living to undead without there being a 'dead' between. That your death was unfair hardly gives acceptable reason for hating every living thing either.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Yes yes, and the knights of the ebon blade are also equally willing to work alongside the living for a common goal. The reason both of these can do that, is because they had someone vouch for them so that the overwhelming majority of the world doesn't try to murder them on sight (Night elves for the worgens, Tirion Fordring for the DKs). Forsaken don't have that luxury, and therefore, every single living being in the world is trying to kill them. Even the horde killed several of the first forsaken ambassadors when they attempted to parlay to do an alliance with them.
Had the forsaken received the same special treatment that the worgens and DKs got, they would had turned out very differently. And this is a fact because DKs ARE essentially forsaken (They are undead, but with free will and sentience) and their existence is even worse than the forsaken's because DKs have the curse of blood on them, forever. And they didn't turned out so badly. Why? because they had someone show compassion to them, rather than attempt to genocide them just for existing.
Garithos trusted them.
Look where it got him.
Post by
978011
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Yep, he's by far one of the worst members of the alliance, and a failure of a commander too (Sylvannas had to bail his ass because him and his men were dancing in the Dreadlord's lap)
But nope, he just takes a small handwave by the devs that gave Garithos a small background for why he hates the elves. Get this: He was the son of a noble leading a small village near Quel'thalas. His father was a major officer in the alliance, and he took most of the soldiers in the village to help defend Quel'thalas, and while the soldiers were away, orcs came and razed his village.
So naturally he vents his rage at the elves. And while this explains (but doesn't justifies) his hatred of elves, it doesn't do anything for his hatred of dwarves, or other non-human members of the alliance.
Post by
Adamsm
Aye, it's not a justification of anything, merely a sign of his own inability to realize that throwing the lives of the Blood Elves away is the worse thing you can do against an enemy such as the Scourge....since you know, every mortal that dies to the Scourge is one more recruit for the undead forces. And if the body isn't completely destroyed, just means that the Scourge can raise it up again and again, giving them more meat to throw at the grinder.
Garithos was a massive idiot, and his death was just one more thing you can actually lay at his feet...I mean really, trusting a Banshee with a body and a Dreadlord.
Post by
H3Knuckles
The way I see it, the Forsaken had every right to lay claim to Tirisfal Glades, and most of the Plaguelands and Silverpine Forest; basically anywhere that had already fallen to the Scourge.
But any attempt to justify their attempts to annihilate the surviving inhabitants of parts of Lordaeron which had remained free, and which where inhabitated mostly by their original citizens, is completely absurd. They have absolutely no excuse for it, they are absolutely treading the same path as the Scourge when they start using plague bombs, forcing others to choose between undeath and death, and invading other's lands.
And then they invade Gilneas and Stromgarde, and people still want to play the "poor victim, they didn't have a choice" card? F that noise. I liked the Forsaken when they were anti-heroes, I liked them when they were villain protagonists, but just as Garrosh began to go off the deep end the Forsaken as a whole took a hard turn deep into villain territory and there's no use trying to excuse it.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Sylvannas who started the whole "new plague" thing in the first place? It was always intended for use on the living as well as the Scourge. Putress and Varimathras' treachery was using it the way they did on friend and foe alike, but the Dark Lady didn't begin that research project for a science fair.
Post by
Lordplatypus
But any attempt to justify their attempts to annihilate the surviving inhabitants of parts of Lordaeron which had remained free, and which where inhabitated mostly by their original citizens, is completely absurd. They have absolutely no excuse for it, they are absolutely treading the same path as the Scourge when they start using plague bombs, forcing others to choose between undeath and death, and invading other's lands.
Remember what arthas Planned in the begining? To turn us evil? Well atleast an eighth of his plan came to fruition, even after his death. The forsaken wanted revenge on arthas, just as he had wanted revenge on malganis.
The exact same tale. Exact same results.
And then they invade Gilneas and Stromgarde, and people still want to play the "poor victim, they didn't have a choice" card? F that noise. I liked the Forsaken when they were anti-heroes, I liked them when they were villain protagonists, but just as Garrosh began to go off the deep end the Forsaken as a whole took a hard turn deep into villain territory and there's no use trying to excuse it.
I see it as simply thrall being the one holding their leash, and he kept it tight, Garrosh, either from idiocy or just plain not caring, didn't He let the forsaken do as they pleased and look what they did.
Exactly.
Seriously,you keep tossing Garinthos over and over as if he's the perfect example of a virtuous and a diplomatic character...No offense,but have you ever played WCIII?
He's just example I need to bring up far too often. Slyvannas betrayed garithos for no good reason other than greed. Kael'thas wanted a battle and got one, then he needed to be bailed out, Garithos was seen from Kael'thas's point of view, and someone like that narcisstic, selfish mana-addicted *Extended Bleep*'s point of view means nothing.
Post by
Adamsm
Kael'thas wanted a battle and got one, then he needed to be bailed out, Garithos was seen from Kael'thas's point of view, and someone like that narcisstic, selfish mana-addicted *Extended Bleep*'s point of view means nothing.
Um..no; Garithos kept sending Kael out on missions that were meant to kill him, because of his feelings about Elves, and continued to strip forces from the Blood Elves when they had the 'gall' to survive.
Post by
belillie
Hello,
i haven't read the entire post because i am at work now and shouldn't be doing this at all but i want to give my opinion on this.
Since Lordaeron is made by humans does not mean that it belongs to humans. It belongs to the people who made them. Even if they were human in the first place.
What happened to them is they got ill by the curse which eventually made them Forsaken.
Those forsaken still build the city, it does not matter if they were human.
In my opinion this has something to do with politics. When the people of Lordaeron became the forsaken the Alliance didnt want them to join the Alliance, they would kill the forsaken.
So what the Forsaken did is they joined a party that wouldn't kill them for what were turned into!
I think the real discussion is:
There are to kind of people of Lordaeron. The ones that fled and survived and the ones that turned into the forsaken. IMO they should both belong in Lordaeron. But since the Forsaken are larger in numbers and have a hunger for human flesh, they occupy Lordaeron at the moment.
Both parties of the people of Lordaeron are the owners. (since they lived there before the scourge).
I think that the Alliance should accept the Forsaken in the Alliance but the Forsaken should kill the Horde instead. They once were alliance but and they still should be!
Sorry for my bad english
Post by
Adamsm
I think that the Alliance should accept the Forsaken in the Alliance but the Forsaken should kill the Horde instead. They once were alliance but and they still should be!After everything the Forsaken have done to Humans(and vice versa), that's never gonna happen.
Post by
4dehorde
After everything the Forsaken have done to Humans(and vice versa), that's never gonna happen.
For once I agree with you, Adamsm. It is very unlikely the Forsaken would ever "rejoin" the Alliance. Furthermore, its even more unlikely the Alliance would want the Forsaken in their ranks. The Alliance views the Forsaken as monsters, for both reasons justified and unjustified. Likewise, the Forsaken aren't likely to forget the crimes of the Scarlet Crusade (which admittedly is not Alliance-affiliated but certainly did no good to improve the image of humans in the eyes of sentient undead) and the recent Alliance invasions anytime soon.
At first the Alliance seemed to purely despise the Forsaken simply for being undead, seeing little difference between them and the Scourge, but now they have more legit reasons, what with the Blight and Invasion of Gilneas.
The Forsaken hate humanity and their allies almost as much as they do the Scourge. Years of persecution at the hands of the Scarlets and as I mentioned earlier several Alliance incursions into their lands has cemented that view.
As for you Lordplatypus, earlier you said the Forsaken seek to kill every human and genocide humanity. Again I point out, if that is the case, why are the Forsaken not attacking the Argent Crusade? Sure there is tension between the two groups but no open violence, yet.
Post by
Behelich
As for you Lordplatypus, earlier you said the Forsaken seek to kill every human and genocide humanity. Again I point out, if that is the case, why are the Forsaken not attacking the Argent Crusade? Sure there is tension between the two groups but no open violence, yet.
Forsaken are genocidal, amoral and ruthless. However, they are not stupid. Were they to attack the Argent Crusade, the whole world would turn against them - including even the Knights of the Ebon Blade. For now, the Forsaken's usefulness to the Horde outweighs their atrocities, but if that scale were to be tipped, they would be quickly left alone. They understand it, and bide their time, content to concentrate on the Alliance for now.
Do keep in mind, however, that with the recent purification of the Western Plaguelands and numerous living humans flocking there to live under the aegis of the Crusade, the Forsaken are definitely more than a little unhappy about their neighbors.
Post by
Adamsm
That...and you know, the fact that the leader of the Argent has the Ashbringer, which could wipe out the Forsaken army in a few swings.
Post by
Behelich
That...and you know, the fact that the leader of the Argent has the Ashbringer, which could wipe out the Forsaken army in a few swings.
If the Ashbringer had
that
power, we would see it in the campaign against the Lich King. He had no reason to hold back there. Ashbringer can make one pious man worth a company of soldiers, but definitely not their entire army, complete with the Blight.
Post by
Adamsm
That power was seen in the Ashbringer comic, where the Blade destroyed scores of Undead like they were nothing. You also see it when Tirion uses it against the Lich King at Light's Hope to drive him off. It wasn't used during the Northrend Campaign as the power of the Scourge was greater there...but the Forsaken don't have that same type of protection: If Tirion was to unleash the power of the Blade on the Undead in the Eastern Kingdom, they wouldn't stand for long.
Post by
Monday
but the Forsaken don't have that same type of protection: If Tirion was to unleash the power of the Blade on the Undead in the Eastern Kingdom, they wouldn't stand for long.
Source?
That power was seen in the Ashbringer comic, where the Blade destroyed scores of Undead like they were nothing.
Those were the mindless Scourge. Arthas cut through dozens of them at a time without Ashbringer.
You also see it when Tirion uses it against the Lich King at Light's Hope to drive him off.
Key words there being "at Light's Hope."
Post by
Adamsm
but the Forsaken don't have that same type of protection: If Tirion was to unleash the power of the Blade on the Undead in the Eastern Kingdom, they wouldn't stand for long.
Source?At this point there isn't one...but as it's a weapon designed to kill Undead, and kill them good....
That power was seen in the Ashbringer comic, where the Blade destroyed scores of Undead like they were nothing.
Those were the mindless Scourge. Arthas cut through dozens of them at a time without Ashbringer.The weapon was strong enough that it caused KT to work actively to capture the corpse of the current bearer and work with a Dreadlord to pull it off; again, go read the Ashbringer comic.
You also see it when Tirion uses it against the Lich King at Light's Hope to drive him off.
Key words there being "at Light's Hope."
Right..and that was against the Lich King, and among the Forsaken, there are no undead in that league.
Post by
Monday
again, go read the Ashbringer comic.
I did, though I admit that it was several years ago.
Right..and that was against the Lich King, and among the Forsaken, there are no undead in that league.
Sylvanas? She isn't AS powerful as the Lich King, but she is certainly an incredibly skilled and powerful undead.
The weapon was strong enough that it caused KT to work actively to capture the corpse of the current bearer and work with a Dreadlord to pull it off;
Sure. The Lich King did the same with the heroes at Northrend. Does that mean that they are powerful enough to destroy the Forsaken?
At this point there isn't one...but as it's a weapon designed to kill Undead, and kill them good....
The Blight says hello.
Post by
Adamsm
Sylvanas? She isn't AS powerful as the Lich King, but she is certainly an incredibly skilled and powerful undead.But still an Undead, and against the weapon designed specifically to kill the Undead, I can't see her surviving against Tirion in a fight.
Sure. The Lich King did the same with the heroes at Northrend. Does that mean that they are powerful enough to destroy the Forsaken?One on one, or an army? Of course; they are just Undead; only difference between a Forsaken and a standard Scourge is a Forsaken has their mind.
The Blight says hello.Unlike the Blight, a swing of the Ashbringer's power won't kill the living allies. And all things considered, the Blight is not a 'secret' anymore; there are ways to combat it...but how do you stop something that is made to kill the Undead, and can do so in a wide range fashion?
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