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The Future of Lordaeron
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Post by
oneforthemoney
You can't make that choice for them. They are a sovereign state, and an act of aggression against them IS an act of war, no matter how you look at it.
To be fair here, their entire propagation is reliant on war. Or people farming, which is worse depending I suppose.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Never said it was pleasant.
But if their entire species, literally species, is dependent on killing the genetically similar, it seems not to be much of a stretch to say that nonaggression is not really an option here. They are necessitated by mass aggression, so how does one go about creating a peace with a people such as that?
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
oneforthemoney
You don't. As simple as that, but, this was assuming that each culture was respecting the rights of another prior. In the end Lordaeron belongs to whoever can hold it because the two ARE at war.
Indeed. Which means who held it before and after is really kind of inconsequential. It doesn't matter if they did before being alive, still are alive, or whatever. All that does matter at this point is who has it now.
Post by
4dehorde
We do not know of lordaeron law
Then you really can't say, on legal terms at least, whether or not...
The forsaken are either an occupation or just squatting.
Also, consider this, what about the entire families that were wiped out and turned into undead. There are no living members to claim the land. Is that certainly not Forsaken land if the only family members left are Forsaken? And what of the Forsaken that hold the deeds to their land already?
Post by
Rankkor
Technically speaking, if the war between the alliance and horde ever ended, then the human survivors of lordaeron don't HAVE to kick the forsaken out. Do remember that the forsaken DO NOT reside in the City of Lordaeron, they live in the Undercity. AKA: The sewers of the capital. The actual capital is just a bunch of ruins that they've never rebuilt, and have no intension of ever using. If the war ever ended, and there was peace between both sides, there "could" be a compromise between both sides, of having the humans live in the capital city, and rebuild it, while the forsaken keep the lower ruins.
This would only leave the issue of how to split the lands above. Given that the western plaguelands are healing, it would be a fair concession to give that one to human settlers, while the forsaken keep Silverpine, and Hillsbrad is just divided 50/50.
So there really isn't any real NEED to kick one side or another. Of course, such a solution is borderline impossible to happen due to the tremendous amount of prejudice seething on both sides that they'd never make, or agree to such a concession unless it was at gunpoint.
Post by
Rankkor
Exactly my point, there's no laws either way. But common sense dictates that the dead should stay dead. The forsaken are not. What gives them the right to have a second life? What lets them deny people who are still living their land?
By your logic, all the infected gilneans have no right to try and regain their humanity via any potion or night elf ritual. A dog is a dog, what gives them the right to have a second life as a human being? what lets them try to pose as something they're clearly not?
Exactly. See how that works?
One of the things slyvannas never shuts up about is how "Horrible" being undead is. But now, she's doing it to other people.
Because they're acting out of desperation. Forsaken cannot reproduce, and they have a lot of people who want them dead just for existing, they need the raw numbers to survive, or else they'd die out of attrition. If there was no war, they'd need not spread their curse onto others. Why do you think the knights of the ebon blade dont' do what the forsaken do? they don't spread their curse onto others, because they have no enemies seeking to hunt them down. If they were systematically killed by an entire civilization who wont stop until they're gone from this world, you bet they'd use their powers to bolster their numbers.
Say what you will about forsakens, but they're not your average undead, they are sentient, and therefore they have as much a right to exist as everyone else. Now, mindless undead who are bound to the will of a single necromancer, yeah, those need to be put down.
I never try to whitewash garithos, just remember, he isn't just "Bigot mcracist" he's also a hero, a badass, and the only hope for humans still left in lordaeron. he fought to the bitter end.
uhuh.
he treated his own troops like shit, callously threw aside valuable lives for a petty grudge, imposed the "Uriah Gambit" on an entire race out of pure spite, and anyone who wasn't human, was in his eyes, just another arrow in his quiver. Sounds familiar? For all the much you hate sylvannas and worship the ground that garithos walked on, they're basically the same exact person. Except one was far more cunning than the other.
On topic, the Forsaken are first and foremost undead. Victims of a horrible curse at best, unnatural abominations that should not even exist at worst.
The same can be said about the worgen. Victims of a horrible curse, an unnatural, abomination of a human/animal hybrid that acts like a beast and not like a man at worst. They depend on the potions crafted by Krenan to even think coherently, and need the night elven ritual to stop slobering like dogs and tearing everyone down. Yet for some reason you seem to have no problem with them existing, and spreading their curse onto others (Read: Hillsbrad survivors) and seeking to reclaim their kingdom.
What makes the worgen so special and the forsaken unworthy of what the worgen have? ohh yeah, worgens are alliance, forsaken are not. I forgot.
Post by
Skreeran
I
am
defending the Culling there.
And yes, Light, because that 'thing that makes you function' is perverse and wrong in its nature. I truly believe that the undead would be better off in their natural state, meaning, dead and buried, or cremated, or whichever is appropriate.As far as I know (and my Shadow Priest believes) Forsaken are animated by The Shadow, which they believe is a necessary part of nature. My priest has come to terms with his undeath, and believes it was the will of the Light so that this new facet of the faith could come to light.
Besides, Skree, does your peaceful priest care for his land? From what we have seen so far, the forsaken are effectively strip-mining the land, perhaps knowing that they have no future generations to be concerned about. Now, if they were actively striving to preserve their home and leave a legacy worthy of a civilized nation, then the argument could be made it is wrong to take the land from them. Now, with their scorched earth policy? Not so much.He cares for it, much in the same sense Gregor cared for the woman in furs on his wall in
The Metamorphosis
(which I think is a really good analogue for the Forsaken). He has moved past that part of his life, and no longer mourns his family, but he still treasures that physical reminder of his former life.
Post by
oneforthemoney
No offense Skree, but by all we've seen insofar your Forsaken is something of the exception to the rule. Particularly with all these new Forsaken who have no ties to Lordaeron popping up.
Post by
Skreeran
No offense Skree, but by all we've seen insofar your Forsaken is something of the exception to the rule. Particularly with all these new Forsaken who have no ties to Lordaeron popping up.I still maintain that there are more of that sort of Forsaken that we see, especially among the more religious and intellectual circles.
Post by
Behelich
What makes the worgen so special and the forsaken unworthy of what the worgen have? ohh yeah, worgens are alliance, forsaken are not. I forgot.
Rank, I did not even mention the worgen until you brought them up. But, if you feel the need to go there, allow me to remind you that at least the worgen can procreate; a love of a male and a female worgen may bring a new life to the world, whereas a forsaken that wishes to have progeny is either a murderer or a grave-robber.
As for the worgen curse, spreading it to others without their consent is unquestionably wrong. The Hillsbrad survivors accepted it when faced before a choice of two evils - become a worgen or a forsaken. In each case, they were losing something of their humanity.
But I digress. I would like to restate that I am not advocating it is exclusively the Alliance that claims Lordaeron. Let the Argent Crusade have it; let the elves of Quel'Thalas have a part - heck, I would welcome even orcs there. Practically anything is better than the forsaken.
I still maintain that there are more of that sort of Forsaken that we see, especially among the more religious and intellectual circles.
We have yet to see any vocal minority of those that has any effect on the Forsaken doctrine. Perhaps is it Blizzard's fault, that they utterly fail to demonstrate parts of their society that is not devoted to the harvesting machine of death that just happens to be allied with the Horde.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Is a worgen dead?
The worgen is in all means just someone with a bad hair problem and big dentures.
The forsaken are dead people pulled out of whatever they were in to live a life of forced nihilism and suffering to further the goals of a genocidal empire.
Post by
978011
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Good points, however I have to refute a few of them:
I fail to see how any of this makes the forsaken different than the worgen or any race , in-universe that is.
There isn't any. They are anti-natural aberrations that should not exist (One of the worgen's own racial passives is called "aberration") so they are as much an abomination to the natural order as the forsaken are. If they are not killed just for existing, why should the forsaken?
Unless an official source confirms otherwise, the worgen can't procreate, therefore, just like the forsaken, they only spread by giving their curse onto others. If they have a right to reclaim their kingdom, then why would the forsaken not have the same right?
For all intents and purposes, everything that made them gilnean men is gone, even their mind and sanity is the result of an alchemical compound which they must ingest for the rest of their lives, just to be able to think like a man and not like a dog. And their "disguise" as a human is nothing more than that, a disguise, one brought by a druidic ritual, a mask they wear to blend in society, but their normal state is that of a big animal.
If they have all those rights to live, to exist, and to reclaim their land, then the forsaken have them too.
Also,genocidal empire?I don't think so,apart from Putress and his followers,who secretly served the Burning Legion.
Genocidal would imply they wish to kill everyone. They do not. They kill humans out of necessity, to bolster their numbers, since if they don't they'd be annihilated in this war due to attrition. The races they can't convert into one of them, they don't bother to kill if they can avoid it, as shown in the climax of the Silverpine questline.
Note this,the Forsaken are damned,one way or another:
-If a Forsaken lives for long,he gradually loses his mind,until he literally becomes a zombie.Isn't this a fate worse than death?
-Likewise if a Forsaken dies,he isn't going to the Light or the spirits,or whatever afterlife other races/in-universe religions have.They will eternally float in a dark void, where they will know only terror, cold, hopelessness, fear, and regret (taken exactly as it is said in the "Edge of the Night" novel).
Isn't this kind of a cruel punishment,especially for a Forsaken that was virtuous even in unlife?
This is why I disapprove of them forcing their curse onto others. I get it that they do it out of desperation, but that doesn't make it ok. Its a necessary evil for their survival, but its highly unethical, as their very existence is pure agony, which they are inflicting onto others. Forever. That goes above and beyond "Cruel and Unusual punishment". Frankly, the whole "Genocidal" part seems more merciful than forcefully convert them to forsaken status.
As my last point in this long post (thanks if you have read this far),the Orcs have acted equally unlawfully in certain times:
-The bomb dropped on Stonetalon Mountains? (granted this was not under Garrosh' command)
-The mana bomb in Theramore?
And ultimately:
-The usage of the Divine Bell?
(
For all Horde fans that read this post,i'm not bashing the Horde.I'm merely trying to prove that
the Forsaken are not the "black lambs" of the Horde
.
Heavily disagree.
The bombing of theramoore was ALL on garrosh. As ABSOLUTELY NOBODY in the horde knew of the bomb's existence, and once it was dropped EVERYONE (every single one, from the lowest grunt to the racial leaders themselves) heavily disapproved of it, with Baine going so far as to flat out threaten garrosh to leave the horde if it happens again. This attack was done without the approval, consent, or even knowledge of the rest of the horde.
And the Divine Bell, was once again, all on garrosh. Him and his crownies indeed are soiling the good name of the horde, but not every orc supports garrosh, as shown in 5.3, everything from garrosh sacrificing blood elves left and right to secure the location of the bell, to then threaten to behead the entire Reliquary Expedition if they didn't got the bell back from the alliance, to then use the bell on his own troops whether they wanted to or not. All on him. And NONE of the leaders of the horde approved of this.
Garrosh is the black lamb of the horde, along with the (rather sizable chunk of orcs that blindly follow him). With the forsaken however, you can count with one hand how many of them don't resort to morally questionable tactics to win wars.
Post by
oneforthemoney
I have to call you on declaring the worgen's human guises as the false ones. It was the worgen that were forced upon one's humanity rather than the other way around. And in the end, being a worgen is more a mutation than proper species, and one which can be suppressed with assistance from the druids, whereas undeath is more pervasive. Worgen can return to being human, and so are still human as it were rather than a wolfish hybrid, but the Forsaken will always be walking corpses unless a cure is found.
As well, the Forsaken took it upon themselves to invade for their own purposes, so the Gilnean reclaiming their homes is a literal sense of defending against an encroaching force; whereas with the Forsaken it was due to nearly everyone dying due to the plague or other undead, then coming back after the fact and regaining free will due to a fluke of fate.
Post by
978011
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I have to call you on declaring the worgen's human guises as the false ones. It was the worgen that were forced upon one's humanity rather than the other way around.
Going by that logic, it was undeath that was forced upon the humans of lordaeron. Not the other way around.
And in the end, being a worgen is more a mutation than proper species.
Ditto for the forsaken.
and one which can be suppressed with assistance from the druids, whereas undeath is more pervasive. Worgen can return to being human, and so are still human as it were rather than a wolfish hybrid
Correction: They disguise as humans but humans they are not. When killed do they stay human? nope, they reverse back to worgen. Worgen is their default form, and the human disguise is that, a disguise. When they enter battle, its always as wolves.
And if it wasn't for Krennan's concoction, they wouldn't even be able to think like humans, they'd be complete animals. They have to resort to a potion, and a magic ritual to cling to their humanity, as without these, they're little better than feral beasts.
So natural they aint, and human most definetly they aint. The main difference between worgens and forsakens, is that they found a partial cure to their condition, and a way to disguise their appereance, whereas the forsaken haven't. That's about it. Coming to think of it, worgens are worse than the forsaken, because a newly raised forsaken is fully aware, and still capable of acting like a person, but a worgen has to be heavily sedated, then drink a potion before they can act like a person and not like a beast.
As well, the Forsaken took it upon themselves to invade for their own purposes, so the Gilnean reclaiming their homes is a literal sense of defending against an encroaching force; whereas with the Forsaken it was due to nearly everyone dying due to the plague or other undead, then coming back after the fact and regaining free will due to a fluke of fate.
I'm well aware of this. I was using them as an analogy. Worgens want to reclaim gilneas, and somehow players believe this is ok, even though they're very clearly NOT the same people they used to be. Several books even show them developing a new wolfish/beastly culture. So its perfectly ok that these recover their kingdom.
But Forsaken holding onto theirs? unacceptable, the kingdom of lordaeron instead has to go to the people who left and hasn't come back in decades nor done anything to defend it from the legion, and the scourge. The point I'm trying to make is: If its ok that the worgens get their kingdom back (which it is, I'm not arguing against it) then its ok that the forsaken keep theirs.
Besides, as I've mentioned before, its not strictly necesary that one side has to kick the other. The forsaken are NOT using the upper side of the capital city. They live in the UNDERcity, the sewers, the crypts beneath the capital. Its perfectly possible, albeit unlikely due to both the war and the extreme bigotry on both sides, for both human and forsaken to coexist in the same city. Humans living on the surface, forsaken living in the undercity. And then split what's left of the kingdom between them, such as Silverpine going to the forsaken, EPL going to the lordaeronian survivors, and Hillsbrad being split 50/50.
But alas, something like that is extremely unlikely to happen. Specially given how much bad blood is there between both sides.
Post by
Skreeran
Note this,the Forsaken are damned,one way or another:
-If a Forsaken lives for long,he gradually loses his mind,until he literally becomes a zombie.Isn't this a fate worse than death?
-Likewise if a Forsaken dies,he isn't going to the Light or the spirits,or whatever afterlife other races/in-universe religions have.They will eternally float in a dark void, where they will know only terror, cold, hopelessness, fear, and regret (taken exactly as it is said in the "Edge of the Night" novel).
Isn't this kind of a cruel punishment,especially for a Forsaken that was virtuous even in unlife?
This is why I disapprove of them forcing their curse onto others. I get it that they do it out of desperation, but that doesn't make it ok. Its a necessary evil for their survival, but its highly unethical, as their very existence is pure agony, which they are inflicting onto others. Forever. That goes above and beyond "Cruel and Unusual punishment". Frankly, the whole "Genocidal" part seems more merciful than forcefully convert them to forsaken status.I don't think that just because Sylvanas was going to a hell equivalent means that all undead go there. Who knows, it might even have been manipulation on the Val'kyr's part.
I know that my priest certainly doesn't think he's going to be doomed to an eternity of suffering. He believes that this is all part of a cosmic plan, and lost his past life so that he could discover The Shadow and learn the whole truth.
Post by
oneforthemoney
I have to call you on declaring the worgen's human guises as the false ones. It was the worgen that were forced upon one's humanity rather than the other way around.
Going by that logic, it was undeath that was forced upon the humans of lordaeron. Not the other way around.
No. It was undeath forced upon a corpse. There is a difference, namely that the Forsaken were dead first.
I have to call you on declaring the worgen's human guises as the false ones. It was the worgen that were forced upon one's humanity rather than the other way around.
Going by that logic, it was undeath that was forced upon the humans of lordaeron. Not the other way around.
And in the end, being a worgen is more a mutation than proper species.
Ditto for the forsaken.
and one which can be suppressed with assistance from the druids, whereas undeath is more pervasive. Worgen can return to being human, and so are still human as it were rather than a wolfish hybrid
Correction: They disguise as humans but humans they are not. When killed do they stay human? nope, they reverse back to worgen. Worgen is their default form, and the human disguise is that, a disguise. When they enter battle, its always as wolves.
And if it wasn't for Krennan's concoction, they wouldn't even be able to think like humans, they'd be complete animals. They have to resort to a potion, and a magic ritual to cling to their humanity, as without these, they're little better than feral beasts.
So natural they aint, and human most definetly they aint. The main difference between worgens and forsakens, is that they found a partial cure to their condition, and a way to disguise their appereance, whereas the forsaken haven't. That's about it. Coming to think of it, worgens are worse than the forsaken, because a newly raised forsaken is fully aware, and still capable of acting like a person, but a worgen has to be heavily sedated, then drink a potion before they can act like a person and not like a beast..
The problem with this idea is that you mistake that they can alternate between forms with wearing a disguise. It's hardly the same thing. Worgen can change back into the former selves, but also into their worgen forms. They can be human again, but the best a Forsaken can do is pretend to be.
As well, the real difference between these two is that the worgen are happy to work alongside the yet human Gilneans to reclaim their homes. Whereas the Forsaken claim their territory for themselves and kill any other humans who once lived there or not to bolster their numbers, the worgen who regain their will are still Gilneans at heart and work with unturned humans to defend their homeland. The Forsaken mentality, at least regarding other humans, is you're with us, or against us. Sadly, both definitions end with the human dead, then with them.
Also, a Forsaken newly raised is apparently an irrational creature that the Forsaken tend to force on the front lines to fight, then give them their damned if you do choice after they calm down, as according to wowpedia:
This is due to the fact those raised by the Val'kyr who die in combat or under extreme stress, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, the remaining resurrected or given the option of joining the Forsaken or being returned to the grave.
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