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The Future of Lordaeron
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Post by
Stabhorn
The Forsaken are sane.
Post by
Rankkor
The living since they'll actually use it for something rather then just staring at it like a Forsaken would.
Pretty sure the forsaken use it as a testing grounds for their blight and other horrid crimes against everything good and sane.
you act as if their entire society was devoted exclusively and uniquely to developing the plague and nothing else.
hint:
They're not.
That's as much a generalization as saying that the only thing night elves do all day and all night is hug trees. Or that the one thing Taurens do all day and all night is smoke the peace pipe. Or that the one thing worgens do all day is howl at the moon.
Or that Dwarves do nothing but drink beer and all of their society is centered exclusively in brewing it. Or that Blood elves do nothing but admire themselves in the mirror........... ok that last one is semi-plausible, but still.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Or that Dwarves do nothing but drink beer and all of their society is centered exclusively in brewing it. Or that Blood elves do nothing but admire themselves in the mirror........... ok that last one is semi-plausible, but still.
Don't you mean the last
two
?
Just saying, it's practically all they use the land for, they don't farm, they don't hunt they don't do anything else related to land other than throw blight on it.
Post by
Stabhorn
Or that Dwarves do nothing but drink beer and all of their society is centered exclusively in brewing it.
No, that's the Pandaren :)
Post by
morginar
Or that Dwarves do nothing but drink beer and all of their society is centered exclusively in brewing it. Or that Blood elves do nothing but admire themselves in the mirror........... ok that last one is semi-plausible, but still.
Don't you mean the last
two
?
Just saying, it's practically all they use the land for, they don't farm, they don't hunt they don't do anything else related to land other than throw blight on it.
Don't the forsaken and stormgrade humans battle in a valley for resourses?
The forsaken would probably use the land for it's resources but it's kinda dead. They do mining thought. But you might ponder why a undead would farm when they do not need to eat. Well they got economy. Selling food, lumber and ore is good money.
Post by
EMPHaraljier
Uh, I would imagine that the orcs in the Undercity and in Hammerfall need something to eat other than maggots and roaches.
Post by
Maniac21
I believe that the Living will reclaim Lordaeron eventually. From what i've seen, I realy don't know how the Forsaken can avoid eventually being wiped out. The dark corruption that has changed them so much has....well, changed them. The Forsaken's relationship with the other races has always ranged from outright hostile (Alliance) to unfriendly necessity (most of the Horde races). The Forsaken make no bones about the fact that they want to turn as much people as possible into more undead, all to keep their new civilization alive. Being turned forcibly into undead is not something that many people actually want (ask Arthas, he can tell you all about it).
And it seems that there are very few of the Forsaken who are actively against this, and those who are seem to end up joining the Argent Crusade (perhaps it's the only safe place to go). The Forsaken are, too me, people trying desperately to deny the fact that there life is over, and I see this leading to an even bigger tragedy in their future.
With the way the Forsaken are going, with or without Sylvanas influence, I don't think they can avoid eventually being wiped out. It will not happen soon, and we will never see it in-game, but, yes, I see them being wiped out eventually.
Post by
Rankkor
With the way the Forsaken are going, with or without Sylvanas influence, I don't think they can avoid eventually being wiped out. It will not happen soon, and we will never see it in-game, but, yes, I see them being wiped out eventually.
Not necessarily. They ARE working on a cure for undeath, and they actually managed to find a cure for the earliest stages of undeath prior to WOTLK. Their justification for raising others as forsaken (which really is a HUGE "WTF" moment for Sylvannas, as she herself often says that her very life is a torment and she finds no joy in her curse) is that they are stalling for time until said cure is complete.
At the rate they are going, they're gonna run out of friends and out of people who protect them. Plus only a handful (barely half a dozen) of Val'kyrs joined Sylvannas, and most of them are dead, its not realistic to think they're gonna keep the other two around forever, and eventually there may come a time where they need the horde, more than the horde needs them and their baggage.
IF they manage to find a cure for their undeath and actually manage to restore those they transformed into their ranks recently, well...... things are gonna get interesting. Frankly I'd love to see that happen if anything, so I could see what would each sub-group of forsaken do.
The Ambermill mages that were drafted, the gilneans, the people of stromgarde, etc etc.
Then we'd have to consider what would happen to the cult of forgotten shadow, what would happen to the undercity, would they rebuild the upper ruins? There's just a lot of impossible to predict developments of what would happen if they actually managed to pull off the impossible and actually come up with a cure for undeath. Would all of them be trialed for their actions? Only some of them? if so which ones? Would the higher ranking ones willingly submit?
They've broken a lot of bridges and have slid down the slippery rope just to cling to the world of the living just a bit longer to develop their cure.
Post by
Maniac21
With the way the Forsaken are going, with or without Sylvanas influence, I don't think they can avoid eventually being wiped out. It will not happen soon, and we will never see it in-game, but, yes, I see them being wiped out eventually.
Not necessarily. They ARE working on a cure for undeath, and they actually managed to find a cure for the earliest stages of undeath prior to WOTLK. Their justification for raising others as forsaken (which really is a HUGE "WTF" moment for Sylvannas, as she herself often says that her very life is a torment and she finds no joy in her curse) is that they are stalling for time until said cure is complete.
At the rate they are going, they're gonna run out of friends and out of people who protect them. Plus only a handful (barely half a dozen) of Val'kyrs joined Sylvannas, and most of them are dead, its not realistic to think they're gonna keep the other two around forever, and eventually there may come a time where they need the horde, more than the horde needs them and their baggage.
IF they manage to find a cure for their undeath and actually manage to restore those they transformed into their ranks recently, well...... things are gonna get interesting. Frankly I'd love to see that happen if anything, so I could see what would each sub-group of forsaken do.
The Ambermill mages that were drafted, the gilneans, the people of stromgarde, etc etc.
Then we'd have to consider what would happen to the cult of forgotten shadow, what would happen to the undercity, would they rebuild the upper ruins? There's just a lot of impossible to predict developments of what would happen if they actually managed to pull off the impossible and actually come up with a cure for undeath. Would all of them be trialed for their actions? Only some of them? if so which ones? Would the higher ranking ones willingly submit?
They've broken a lot of bridges and have slid down the slippery rope just to cling to the world of the living just a bit longer to develop their cure.
I was not aware that there was a cure in the works that had been developed that far, but that just makes the whole situation worse. How would it really work, considering so many of the undead have bodies that have long since begun to rot away? And if they did find a working cure, would it be enough to forgive all the horrible things that have been done in it's name? (They remade the LICH KING'S plague!)
And of course, we have to remember that the undead plague is more than just physical corruption, it's mental corruption as well. There are some incredibly twisted people in the Forsaken ranks who have more than likely decided that they like the Lich King's "Gift" of immortality, and actually want to spread it. Or now see that there is no reason to hold themselves back anymore, after all their immortal, no one cans top them now. It's brought out the worst in so many people it's touched and made it their defining characteristic.
And finally their's the Banshee Queen herself. Say what you will about the tragedy of Sylvanas life, she willingly took in Scourge weaponry (the Plague, and the Valk'yr) and that isn't something that sits well with people. She might be looking for a cure, but we have to ask, what is more forefront of Sylvanas mind? How much she hates what she is, or fear of the horrible blackness that is waiting for her on the other side of death?
Post by
Rankkor
I was not aware that there was a cure in the works that had been developed that far
Few people are, its rarely mentioned. But it was developed, during the pre-wrath even, Grand Apothecary Putress managed to develop a cure for the very earliest stages of undeath. Unfortunately they haven't been able to come up with a cure for the latter stages yet.
but that just makes the whole situation worse.
How?
How would it really work, considering so many of the undead have bodies that have long since begun to rot away?
Remember that this is a fantasy game, where in some raid fights you get genetically spliced into a giant yellow monster or a mutant scorpion, and then revert back to normal with seemingly no lasting ill effects. So yeah... standard laws of physics don't apply here. The cure could do more than just bring a person back from undeath, it could also restore maimed bodies and decayed parts.
That's why I said it would be interesting, because we simply do not know how exactly it would work. The cure for the stage 1 of undeath worked pretty neatly, despite the victims being rotting and decayed ghouls.
And if they did find a working cure, would it be enough to forgive all the horrible things that have been done in it's name?
This is the second reason why I said it would be interesting, because there's so many posibilities of where the plot could go from there if it happens. It would be disappointing and predictable if the entire forsaken race is automatically forgiven, and it would be pointless and redundant if the alliance remained 100% driven to still annihilate them all, even the ones that only joined out of necessity rather than willingness.
Do remember that a large bulk of the forsaken are there because they have literally nowhere else to go. Many of them were loyal alliance troops but then they were killed, raised, and now they can't go back to the alliance because the alliance would kill them JUST FOR BEING FORSAKEN, but they also don't want to kill themselves, thus they join the one group that would accept them, and offer them protection. (Not everyone knows about the argent crusade, and even then, not everyone could make the trip to the plaguelands, alone, and with everyone alliance gunning for your head.)
(They remade the LICH KING'S plague!)
=/ So many people keep making this mistake.
The blight is NOT the lich king's plague. If it was, the forsaken would have no need of the Val'kyr. First off, the lich king plague kills its victims and then reanimates them as mindless undead. Second of all, the lich king plague is contagious, an infected victim can then spread the infection to others by breathing near them. Its a pathological disease spread through contaminated food, and then further spread by contagion. Third, the Lich King plague affects only the living, the undead are completely immune to it.
The Forsaken Blight is NONE of these things. First off, it doesn't reanimates anything, it just kills. Secondly, its not a viral weapon because whoever gets affected by it, dies instantly, there's no time for the disease to spread itself via contagion, and its delivered in gaseous form via plague canisters. The cloud itself dissipates over time if its the weaker strain, or pollutes the land if its the stronger strain (which they haven't used since Southshore). And third, the forsaken blight affects everyone, living or undead. When they used it against the lich king, it physically affected and weakened him, and can kill any scourge or forsaken just as good as it can kill any living creature.
So they are NOT the same plague, they're not even remotely close. Neither in application, spreading vector, purpose, or effect. Why do people still mix up the lich king plague with the forsaken blight? =/
In real life equivalents, the Lich King plague is similar to the spanish flu, or the black plague that ravaged europe in the dark ages (with the plus that it reanimates its victims) while the forsaken blight is more akin to the VX Poison Gas or the Sarin Gas.
And of course, we have to remember that the undead plague is more than just physical corruption, it's mental corruption as well. There are some incredibly twisted people in the Forsaken ranks who have more than likely decided that they like the Lich King's "Gift" of immortality, and actually want to spread it.
Yes and no. A large segment of the more twisted forsaken were already disturbed individuals in life. While another large segment became what they are over bitterness due to what happened to them. I'm NOT saying its an excuse, but think about it like this: If you get infected with a curse that makes you look like a monster, and everyone in the world treats you like one, you also find out that you're sterile, and that you are doomed to spend eternity in this condition, wouldn't YOU get depressed?
Its not that undeath corrupts the mind, otherwise there wouldn't be any noble forsaken out there (And there are, A LOT. Tons of really noble or otherwise nice, forsaken out there) but more that some people cope with the condition better than others. While some endure it thinking that if they survive long enough they can be free of it, others give up in despair and simply go "if I have to live like this, I'll drag as many as I can with me before I die"
And trust me, nobody wishes to spread the lich king's "gift". Common necromancy is outlawed in the forsaken ranks (And any undead that doesn't manages to keep their minds and revert to the mindless shambling zombies we see here and there are automatically slain) and currently they are using the val'kyrs only out of necessity, because they can't reproduce, and would otherwise die by attrition in the long run. All the alliance has to do is keep throwing troops at them and sooner or latter they'd be whittled down to extinction if they didn't bolstered their numbers in some form.
Or now see that there is no reason to hold themselves back anymore, after all their immortal, no one cans top them now. It's brought out the worst in so many people it's touched and made it their defining characteristic.
Hmm Immortal doesn't mean Unkillable. And their current state of mind has nothing to do with the longevity of their life span. After all, night elves are immortal too, as are the draenei, you don't see them going "*shrugh* I can't die so I may as well kill as many as I can". The mental depravity of the forsaken is tied up with how they failed to cope with their current condition and had a MASSIVE mental breakdown. Which is yet another reason for why would a cure be interesting. Would the forsaken be able to readjust to life among the living? would there be some wihtin their ranks that would outright REFUSE the cure due to finding a new cultural identity that they like?
And finally their's the Banshee Queen herself. Say what you will about the tragedy of Sylvanas life, she willingly took in Scourge weaponry (the Plague, and the Valk'yr) and that isn't something that sits well with people.
Just the Val'kyr, not the plague. She hates common mindless undead, if she didn't she would had filled her ranks with common necromancers to raise anything. Instead she resorts to the Val'kyrs which have a big penalty and limitation in their powers (Valks can only ressurect as sentient undead Vrykuls and Humans, the other races are unaffected by them) because she wants troops with free will. These troops are then given the choice of joining the forsaken, or walking away, and if they choose to walk away, as long as they don't display any hostility, they are unharmed.
She might be looking for a cure, but we have to ask, what is more forefront of Sylvanas mind? How much she hates what she is, or fear of the horrible blackness that is waiting for her on the other side of death?
How about both? the latter doesn't excludes the former.
Post by
morginar
Rank, the forsaken have necromancers. Though they don't animate corpses. They heal the undeads. And I think the necro that walks with kel't in old hillsbrad instance is at ruins of southshore giving some buff our rangers with mah orb quest.
An it's not like the ebon blade is beter people. They have a daily to spawn some mindless ghouls from scarlets in Icecrown. And the need to kill as mentioned in the third or so quest in the DK starting zone.
Post by
Maniac21
Okay technically it's not the Lich King's Plague, but it's still the plague of undeath, and I doubt many people who know about the plague actually care whether or not it came from the Scourge. I do not doubt that their are plenty of good reasonable Forsaken out there, but so long as these negative evil forsaken take front and center (and Sylvanas refuses to publicly speak out against them), the face of the Forsaken will always be just what Sylvanas said to Garrosh, when he asked her what separated her from the Lich King.
"I serve the Horde."
She's publicly saying that she's not really any different from Arthas. While the plague being used by the Forsaken is not the Scourges, they themselves are the result of the Scourge plague, and I really do believe that the Plague of Undeath is as much mental as physical. Mental corruption would be necessary for what Arthas was planning. If it was just phsyical, why create ranks in his army? Why create the Death Knights as commander classes for his army? For all this to work, the Lich King needed to change the way they thought, as mindless ravagers would not fit within Arthas vision. He was creating a twisted version of Lordaeron up in Northrend, all in some weird way of proving that he was better than his father, and that all his choices that led there were the right ones.
Lordaeron was a kingdom, with kings, queens, princess, commoners, royals, all that. Arthas couldn't build all this from scratch. He took people from around the world, corrupted their bodies, corrupted their minds, and built his new kingdom. Most of them would have never gone along with this if they continued to think like they used to, but making them mindless wouldn't go along with what he wanted.
(Just out of curiousity, Lan'thiel was technically Arthas queen right?)
Now, feel free to tear my argument apart. :)
Post by
Rankkor
Okay technically it's not the Lich King's Plague, but it's still the plague of
undeath
,
*sighs* no it is NOT.
The Lich King plague kills people, and brings them back to life. The Forsaken Blight, JUST kills people. Its a gas, nothing more than poisonous gas, it has NOTHING to do with undeath whatsoever in any way, shape or form.
Now, feel free to tear my argument apart. :)
Tomorrow. Right now is very late and I'm sleepy. I just wanted to drop by real quick and once again remind you that the forsaken plague is NOT related to the lich king plague in any imaginable way. One is a virus that kills and resurrects the victims, the other is a simple poisonous gas.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Post by
morginar
Right now is very late and I'm sleepy
It's morning.
The Lich King plague kills people, and brings them back to life. The Forsaken Blight, JUST kills people. Its a gas, nothing more than poisonous gas, it has NOTHING to do with undeath whatsoever in any way, shape or form.
Indeed, it melts them down to goo. Think mustard gas, or any of the god ol gases of world war 1.
"I serve the Horde."She was being clever. And said it more to annoy Garrosh.
(Just out of curiousity, Lan'thiel was technically Arthas queen right?)
No marrige. So no. And you might be intrested to hear that Sylvanas got the banshee queen title prior to rebeling. Mening in the service of Arthas she got that nick. And Sindragosa is the frost queen. (And she sound so preety.)
Post by
Rankkor
Ok so I'm ready to refute the other points.
While the plague being used by the Forsaken is not the Scourges, they themselves are the result of the Scourge plague, and
I really do believe that the Plague of Undeath is as much mental as physical
.
wait what? but a few lines before you said this:
I do not doubt that their are plenty of good reasonable Forsaken out there
, but so long as these negative evil forsaken take front and center (and Sylvanas refuses to publicly speak out against them), the face of the Forsaken will always be just what Sylvanas said to Garrosh, when he asked her what separated her from the Lich King.
Come on man, I'm all for tinfoil hat speculation on the more vague aspects of the lore (of which there are PLENTY) but here you're contradicting yourself.
There are two types of evil characters out there: Those that are FORCED to be evil (Via blackmail, or mind control, or possession, or whatever that is out of their hands) and those that CHOOSE to be evil.
Here you are saying that the forsaken have no free will, no choice, no saying, in how their state of mind is, because the plague MAKES THEM depraved, and evil, and bastards, but at the same time you're saying that there's also good forsaken out there?
One of the things that separates the people of the burning legion from the more sapient races is the matter of choice. Forsaken CHOOSE what they want to be in life, some choose to go all balls to the wall evil (Like Warden Stillwater), others choose to simply punish other evil doers (Like Lillian Voss) others simply conform to serve loyally and with honor (Like High Executor Anselm) and so on and so forth.
To try to paint the entire race with a single brush is a HUGE deal of unfairness considering they're as different from each other as the other races. Not every tauren is a peacepipe smoking treehugger, not every orc is a warmongering brute, not every goblin is a slimy greedy bastard, not every human is a xenophobic redneck, not every dwarf is a beerchugging miner, not every gnome is an absentminded inventor, etc etc etc.
Race sterotypes are wrong, IRL, and Ingame.
Mental corruption would be necessary for what Arthas was planning. If it was just phsyical, why create ranks in his army? Why create the Death Knights as commander classes for his army? For all this to work, the Lich King needed to change the way they thought, as mindless ravagers would not fit within Arthas vision. He was creating a twisted version of Lordaeron up in Northrend, all in some weird way of proving that he was better than his father, and that all his choices that led there were the right ones.
Lordaeron was a kingdom, with kings, queens, princess, commoners, royals, all that. Arthas couldn't build all this from scratch.
He took people from around the world, corrupted their bodies, corrupted their minds
, and built his new kingdom. Most of them would have never gone along with this if they continued to think like they used to, but making them mindless wouldn't go along with what he wanted.
You forget that the necromancy used by the lich king isn't the same as what created the forsaken.
This brings us back to my first point: Choice.
The Lich King, took away the choice, from his victims, he slayed them, resurrected them, and the person is reborn without anything that used to define them as living creatures. We see this in the Death Knight starting area, where they have piles and piles of corpses that they continually resurrect, and any that still displays remnants of their former memory, or personality are automatically discarded and re-killed.
His troops have no choice on the matter, the lich king decides which corpses (usually the more battered and decayed) become mindless cannon fodder to chug at the enemies ala zerg rush, and which corpses (usually the more preserved) are allowed a higher degree of mentality but still bound to him. Nowhere is this better exemplified than with Saurfang and Bolvar. Both of them killed, both of them revived, both of them tortured endlessly until their minds broke and they could serve the lich king.
Does this means Saurfang Junior was evil all along? hell no, he had his choice taken away from him.
A forsaken is what happens when the mental link between necromancer, and reanimated corpse is broken, and the corpse regains their free will, their capacity to decide what to do without being forced to do so. As such, its their choice on whether to act as they used to in life, or not. Some forsaken cope with what happened to them, and are thus decent people, others caved in and became horrible horrible beings, but none of it is related to their condition as undead. Please understand that there's a difference between scourge undead, and forsaken undead. Even if they look the same, they're very VERY different.
THIS is why I highlighted that bit on the last quote. The whole mental corruption of the leaders of the scourge? yeah that was all the lich king, it had NOTHING to do with being undead. Otherwise, Bolvar would had been unable to become evil if being undead automatically depraved your mind.
Post by
EMPHaraljier
One of the things that separates the people of the burning legion from the more sapient races is the matter of choice. Forsaken CHOOSE what they want to be in life, some choose to go all balls to the wall evil (Like Warden Stillwater), others choose to simply punish other evil doers (Like Lillian Voss) others simply conform to serve loyally and with honor (Like High Executor Anselm) and so on and so forth.
Some embrace their new culture and condition with a daring optimism (Like Deathstalker Belmont, who btw appears to have an overall pleasant disposition, and is, in short the Dark Lady's polar opposite.) Proof that not all forsaken are just sentimental humans, whining and moaning for their old life.
"I serve the Horde."
Ha. I will admit that of all the things she could have said, like "I give my followers a choice" (somewhat akin to Davy Jones) or "I'm only trying to build a sanctuary for my people" (however true or false that claim may be), but no, she said
"I serve the Horde"
. My only guess the reason for this is, was that she knew there was no arguing with Garrosh, so she just decided to piss him off, which she did...
Lordaeron was a kingdom, with kings, queens, princess, commoners, royals, all that. Arthas couldn't build all this from scratch. He took people from around the world, corrupted their bodies, corrupted their minds, and built his new kingdom. Most of them would have never gone along with this if they continued to think like they used to, but making them mindless wouldn't go along with what he wanted.
Okay, first. from around the world What? If you're referring to the Scourge; they ALL originated from Lordaeron. With the exception of the acherus death knights and the like. Otherwise the bulk of the Scourge forces were undead humans and high elves from the kingdom of Lordaeron and Quel'thalas. Now, second.Most of them would have never gone along with this if they continued to think like they used to, but making them mindless wouldn't go along with what he wanted. I think the Helm of Damnation, should be renamed to the Helm of Domination, since that's what it actually does. Simply being undead didn't make you an instant thrall to the Lich King; it was only by his use of the Helm that did that.
Post by
Adamsm
Simply being undead didn't make you an instant thrall to the Lich King; it was only by his use of the Helm that did that.The necromancers and other living who joined up with the Scourge kinda of refutes that.
Post by
Monday
What? If you're referring to the Scourge; they ALL originated from Lordaeron. With the exception of the acherus death knights and the like. Otherwise the bulk of the Scourge forces were undead humans and high elves from the kingdom of Lordaeron and Quel'thalas. Now, second.
Because the Nerubians, Liches, death knights (pre-invasion) and Vrykul ALL came from Lordaeron, am I right?
I think the Helm of Damnation, should be renamed to the Helm of Domination, since that's what it actually does.
Except that it's
totally named the Helm of Domination already
.
Post by
EMPHaraljier
/face turns red
My mistake. I was mixing up Plate of the Damned with the Helm.
No, I didn't mention the Nerubians or Vrykul did I? And the Liches are either former necromancers of the Cult of the Damned, or orcs from the Burning Legion. The point that I was trying to make to the op, was that the Forsaken undead, are almost entirely all from Lordaeron. I wasn't splitting hairs...
Simply being undead didn't make you an instant thrall to the Lich King; it was only by his use of the Helm that did that.The necromancers and other living who joined up with the Scourge kinda of refutes that.
The necromancers of the Cult were under the Lich King's control, (more or less) ergo the undead they raised were as well.
Post by
Monday
The point that I was trying to make to the op, was that the Forsaken undead, are almost entirely all from Lordaeron. I wasn't splitting hairs...
I understand. I just wanted to point out that the Scourge itself was NOT purely from Lordaeron, and, in fact, was mostly from Northrend.
Sorry, it's an academic point, but I had to say it =P
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