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The Future of Lordaeron
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Post by
Monday
I have not argued that it is unprecedented, I have argued that it is morally wrong (contrary to what Rank is saying).
Post by
Skreeran
I have not argued that it is unprecedented, I have argued that it is morally wrong (contrary to what Rank is saying).I agree it's more or less morally wrong. The reason I say more or less is because when you're talking about giving your family a home or keeping them warm, it gets a little fuzzy. I know that, were civilization to collapse, I would certainly kill someone if it was between that and my kids freezing to death.
But what I'm saying is that, moral or not, it's not exactly an unspeakable act. Living in the 21st Century in a more or less peaceful part of the world we can say that "Possession of a resource is never a good reason to invade," but that is a relatively new idea. For most of the history of the world, if a country wanted something that another country had, and had the power to take it, they did, and that was seen as a perfectly acceptable thing to do.
Post by
Monday
But as we live in the modern time period and talking about a product of the 21st century, I can say with complete certainty that that is a bad reason to invade.
The reason I say more or less is because when you're talking about giving your family a home or keeping them warm, it gets a little fuzzy. I know that, were civilization to collapse, I would certainly kill someone if it was between that and my kids freezing to death.
There are many, many other places to reliably gather lumber besides the kaldorei's sacred forests.
Post by
Skreeran
But as they don't live in the 21st century, we can't expect them to behave as if they did. From an Orcish point of view, that's just how life works.
Post by
Adamsm
There are many, many other places to reliably gather lumber besides the kaldorei's sacred forests.
But from Durotar? After all; Dustwallow is a Swamp full of dragons and Alliance forces, and the Kaldorei's sacred forest extends from Darkshore all the way down to the mountains that border Silithus and Un'goro. Mulgore is mainly rolling plains, the Barrens speak for itself, nothing to build with but rocks in pre-Cata Thousand Needles.
They have a point; if they had sent logging crews into Azshara, they would have clear cut it in no time...and still would have run into issues with the Night Elves there. And it's not even a matter of getting wood from over the sea, since the Forsaken didn't officially join the Horde till a year or so before the start of WoW, and even then, would you really want to build your home from the woods of Silverpine Forest, after the Undead corruption that had gone through there?
Post by
Monday
Northrend, Hillsbrad (now that it is under Forsaken control), Quel'thalas. Plenty of options.
But as they don't live in the 21st century, we can't expect them to behave as if they did. From an Orcish point of view, that's just how life works.
So we're unable to judge those of preceding centuries who have done terrible things because "that's just how life works?"
Sorry, but I'm going to judge anyone who uses
medieval
torture
devices
all I want. The same applies to wanton invasions.
Post by
Adamsm
Northrend, Hillsbrad (now that it is under Forsaken control), Quel'thalas. Plenty of options. But not completely viable ones; all of those would involve ships to transport the lumber and when people need it, since the chosen land they've made to live in is just a few degrees from a desert, and you need that wood for the cold nights and to make new buildings well...I don't think you want to wait months for a shipment to come.
There's also the fact that a lot of Hillsbrad is being tainted, and the Elves are very picky about their trees and what happened last time the Orcs had been in their 'sacred forests' after all. And with everything that Garrosh has been doing to the Blood Elves lately, it's not like they would really be stirring themselves all that much to provide lumber.
Of course all of that doesn't really help when both sides are staffed by hard headed and border line xenophobic groups who absolutely loath the other.
Post by
Skreeran
But as they don't live in the 21st century, we can't expect them to behave as if they did. From an Orcish point of view, that's just how life works.
So we're unable to judge those of preceding centuries who have done terrible things because "that's just how life works?"
Sorry, but I'm going to judge anyone who uses
medieval
torture
devices
all I want. The same applies to wanton invasions.I don't think I'm getting my point across.
I'm not saying
it's not wrong.
I'm saying that
we can't expect them to behave according to our moral, if they haven't developed those moral beliefs themselves.
It's like criticizing Thomas Jefferson as an immoral person because he kept slaves. Yes, in retrospect, that was incredibly immoral, and even hypocritical considering his beliefs about the inalienable rights of men, but for his time period, he was a remarkably forward-thinker regarding human rights.
Post by
Rankkor
You seem to also be ignoring that the orcs tried the civilized way before (Buying the wood) and it was the alliance who backed out. Not the other way around. And for the most stupid reason ever, as even a moron could had seen that the attack on the summit was made by Twilight Hammer forces, and Varian sent his master spy to make sure it was. After she returned to him, did he sent a formal apology to the warchief for calling him a coward and a traitor? (you know, the WORST cultural insults you could say to an orc) did he accepted their offer of negotiation for materials?
Nope, screw it, he wanted an excuse to keep the hostilities up. Ohhhh but as soon as HE thinks he's been offended he demands an apology from others. Varian makes a wild accusation without proof (that the horde attacked the theramoore summit) and demands a satisfaccion, but as soon as someone does the same to him (garrosh on trial of the crusader) he has the balls to feel offended. This is why I dislike varian tremendously, and why I think so much of the alliance is full of hypocrites (Mind you, Garrosh is a HUGE hypocrite himself, but other than him, the rest of the horde leadership is more legit)
There are many, many other places to reliably gather lumber besides the kaldorei's sacred forests.
Care to name them? because the elves lay claim to EVERY.SINGLE.PIECE.OF.FERTILE.WOOD in Kalimdor.
Pretty much the one place they don't lay a claim is Un'goro, but that place is full to the brim in hostile beasts, titan constructs, and hostile aquir. Not to mention its on the other far end of the world.
All of this could had easily been avoided had the alliance not backed out of the diplomatic solution. I'm not saying the horde is 100% blameless, but I AM debunking that nonsensical notion that ALL of the agression came exclusively from the horde.
The alliance is just as responsible as the horde is for the war. After all, they had a peace treaty in place after WOTLK and it was THE ALLIANCE who broke it, not the horde.
Post by
Snake387
The alliance is just as responsible as the horde is for the war. After all, they had a peace treaty in place after WOTLK and it was THE ALLIANCE who broke it, not the horde.
Yeah, after the Broken Front.
You seem to also be ignoring that the orcs tried the civilized way before (Buying the wood) and it was the alliance who backed out.
What, now just because the Horde offer some money the Alliance have to sell it to them. Now, the Alliance can't say they don't want to sell it. And anyway, chances are, that wood would've been made to build ships and cannons that would've been used against the Alliance and probably to take Ashenvale for themselves. Any truce between the Alliance and the Horde for land is a ticking time bomb after all. Oh, and the Night Elves obviously wouldn't want to let the goblins get hold of Ashenvale. Lokk what they did to Stonetalon and Azshara.
I'm not saying the horde is 100% blameless, but I AM debunking that nonsensical notion that ALL of the agression came exclusively from the horde.
Hell no did all the aggression come from Horde. The goblins joined the Horde because of, I hate to say it, the Alliance's SI:7 people. Going after the Undercity because of Putress was silly as well just to name a couple. But the Horde don't need wood anyway. They live in a hot place and have a load of coal to make fires thanks to the goblins at night. Plus, they can just fill their houses with straw. All without attacking the Alliance in Ashenvale.
Post by
Rankkor
The alliance is just as responsible as the horde is for the war. After all, they had a peace treaty in place after WOTLK and it was THE ALLIANCE who broke it, not the horde.
Yeah, after the Broken Front.
The broken front happened AFTER the king attacked the warchief.
And the Peace treaty, which the alliance then broke first, happened AFTER the broken front.
Where you saying?
But the Horde don't need wood anyway.
They live in a hot place
and have a load of coal to make fires thanks to the goblins at night. Plus, they can just fill their houses with straw. All without attacking the Alliance in Ashenvale.
You obviously don't know how deserts work do you?
Post by
Snake387
You obviously don't know how deserts work do you?
Read after that. You know, the night bit.
The broken front happened AFTER the king attacked the warchief.
And the Peace treaty, which the alliance then broke first, happened AFTER the broken front.
Appears I was wrong then. Fine, the Alliance did break the peace treaty but you've got to admit, it was a ticking time bomb anyway. But ultimately, hotheaded Varian did break the treaty.
Post by
morginar
And garrosh is also a hothead who seeked bloodthirst in Shattering. He didn't even want diplomancy with the elves. It is even said by NPC in cata that they wished for no more diplomancy ,treaties with elves and wanted action.
Meaning the orc want, orc take. He do not ask.
And garrosh did use the lumber to fuel a warmachine rather than a house.
all of those would involve ships to transport the lumber
Trade IRL uses shiping around the world with products and resources. 'Tis is silly that the orc MUST have local resources.
Post by
Adamsm
all of those would involve ships to transport the lumber
Trade IRL uses shiping around the world with products and resources. 'Tis is silly that the orc MUST have local resources.
Yes but in our world they have vessels capable of crossing the ocean very quickly...not so much in the Warcraft one. And they need the local resources more because of the fact that they live in a desert land which is harsh and doesn't have a lot of natural resources to support the population like it should, especially after so much was recently flooded and shattered.
Post by
morginar
all of those would involve ships to transport the lumber
Trade IRL uses shiping around the world with products and resources. 'Tis is silly that the orc MUST have local resources.
Yes but in our world they have vessels capable of crossing the ocean very quickly...not so much in the Warcraft one. And they need the local resources more because of the fact that they live in a desert land which is harsh and doesn't have a lot of natural resources to support the population like it should, especially after so much was recently flooded and shattered.
Still not a no to transported goods, things like that can come as regulary as wood from Ashenvale, but without arrows and orc blood on it.
Then they could go for the overgrowth in Barrens, northern Duskwallow, Ferelas, Stonetalon, echo isles.
Realy the only reson Garry assulted Ashenvale was to kill elves becouse they denied wood to the horde warmachine.
Perhaps even geting thunder ridge fixed with some nature magic and poff local wood in the north/south* of the city.
*WC3 had it north and WoW south.
Let's pull of a Garrosh-Saruman comparison while we are at it.
Are the Ents wrong in their jugment becouse Saruman needed wood?
Post by
Monday
Yes but in our world they have vessels capable of crossing the ocean very quickly...not so much in the Warcraft one.
So? There was international shipping and trade back to the dark ages. Remember that Columbus, who was trying to find a land route to the exotic land of India, re-discovered the Americas in the 1400s? The Warcraft universe is far more advanced than Earth was in the 1400s.
And Rank, you're missing my point. Just because the Alliance refused to sell wood does not mean that the orcs have the right to invade Ashenvale.
Not now.
Not ever.
That is the ultimate example of Horde aggression and disregard for other people.
Care to name them? because the elves lay claim to EVERY.SINGLE.PIECE.OF.FERTILE.WOOD in Kalimdor.
Northrend, Hillsbrad (now that it is under Forsaken control), Quel'thalas. Plenty of options.
I forgot about Un'Goro too. The beats and Titan constructs and whatnot would be a better foe to face than a pissed of kaldorei army, imo.
Post by
Adamsm
go for the overgrowth in BarrensWell except for having to fight the Alliance.
northern DuskwallowPre-Tides of War, Alliance forces there.
Ferelas, StonetalonNight Elf lands.
echo islesThey'd clear cut those tress in next to no time trying to support all of the orcs.
Post by
morginar
go for the overgrowth in BarrensWell except for having to fight the Alliance.Wasn't the allinace there becouse the orcs went to Ashenvale?
northern DuskwallowPre-Tides of War, Alliance forces there.
Doubt jaina has monopoly over duskwallow, nor would she mind orc cuting wood to warm houses.Ferelas, StonetalonNight Elf lands. The forner has horde setlements and have only had non-highborne elves there for 10 years. It's a military base and a Highborne setlement. The later was secured by the horde in questlines.echo islesThey'd clear cut those tress in next to no time trying to support all of the orcs
I see.
Still as our lovley flamable liquid C6H6 said:
Yes but in our world they have vessels capable of crossing the ocean very quickly...not so much in the Warcraft one.
So? There was international shipping and trade back to the dark ages. Remember that Columbus, who was trying to find a land route to the exotic land of India, re-discovered the Americas in the 1400s? The Warcraft universe is far more advanced than Earth was in the 1400s.
Shall i point out that rounding africa by the cape of good hope was a trading route (europe-asia) for ships for hundreds of years?
Post by
Adamsm
Wasn't the allinace there becouse the orcs went to Ashenvale?And those Alliance forces came from Northwatch Hold or from Theramore...so there is an issue with getting vessels to take the lumber back to Durotar/Northern Barrens, since the Chasm cut them off and you have to go through the Alliance held check points at Stonetalon.
Doubt jaina has monopoly over duskwallow, nor would she mind orc cuting wood to warm houses.Jaina no...but the Alliance forces from Stormwind coming in? Very much so. And again, same problems; to get the supplies out, the Horde would be going through Alliance held lands there.
The forner has horde setlements and have only had non-highborne elves there for 10 years. It's a military base and a Highborne setlement. The later was secured by the horde in questlines.The former had one Horde settlement originally, while the Night Elves held most of it..plus you know, it still falls under the 'sacred forests of the Night Elves' which is part of the issue with Orcs cutting trees in Ashenvale. And Stonetalon's forest were in the hands of the Night Elves, till the Old Gods struck at the Grove, the Cataclysm burned a large portion of the forests that used to be at the border of Desolace, and then of course the War between the Horde and the Alliance ruining a lot of the rest of the land.
You can point that out...but, as said, since the Orcs need lumber now and not 6 months from now, if they can get it from a closer location, why wouldn't they? Not saying the Orc aggression into Ashenvale is right(because it's not), but as the Night Elves have seem to find it 'easier' to just wage war rather then attempt to open peace talks well....and we saw that all the way back in Warcraft 3 where the Night Elves did strike first and ask questions later to both the Horde and Alliance forces.
Post by
morginar
and we saw that all the way back in Warcraft 3 where the Night Elves did strike first
To be fair that was cenarius. And that was becouse he could feel the demonic taint in them and assumed they where agents of the legion.
You can point that out...but, as said, since the Orcs need lumber now and not 6 months from now,
Do we know how long it takes for a ship to travel from Lordaeron to Durotar?
if they can get it from a closer location, why wouldn't they?
Becouse it is precious to the inhabitans. And they have lived there for over millenia.
Let's make a poor comparison from irl:
You are thirsty and less than ten feet from you is a some holy water. (You're in a church and the priest got a knife.) And Outside over 100-200 feet is a water filled well. Where would you quench your thirst?
And as for the local locations... Well.. I am mature enought to admit defeat.
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