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The Future of Lordaeron
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Post by
4dehorde
I still have yet to see any proof that Blizzard ordered Golden to write that sentence. And once again, Taurajo being on the way to Mulgore does not make it a military target. And even if it were, the Alliance did not have to massacre the town like they did.
Because Golden could not have put it into the book without an okay from Blizzard? Same as any of the characters/situations that Knaak, Grubb and any other Blizzard writer needs before they can put something that does become lore.
And you could say the exact same thing about what the Forsaken did to Southshore and dropping a nuke on the Stormpike forces after all.
It may be canon that Baine said that, but just because he said that it does not make it true. As I said, Baine seems to be terribly misinformed about Taurajo. He doesn't even seem to realize a massacre was committed by Alliance bloodlust.
Blighting Southshore may have been overkill, but I have to disagree with the counterattack on the Stormpike. I believe the Forsaken handled that matter accordingly. The Stormpike were preparing to purge Hillsbrad and the Horde, not just the Forsaken, annihilated them in a preemptive strike. What would you have the Forsaken do? Lay down their arms and let the dwarves butcher them?
Yes but that's not necessarily good is it? She only cares about people who have something to do with her sentimentally, she'd do nothing for someone else unless her or the people she cares about require it and would happily kill them or desert them if it was in her interests. That isn't trying to be good or being good.
One can look at the history of Sylvanas' actions and easily conclude she is simply putting the needs of the Forsaken first. Good and evil aside, a leader looking out for their people is always admirable.
Post by
Snake387
One can look at the history of Sylvanas' actions and easily conclude she is simply putting the needs of the Forsaken first. Good and evil aside, a leader looking out for their people is always admirable.
Yet, everyone seems to hate her, even the members of the horde, I wonder why...
Post by
Lordplatypus
One can look at the history of Sylvanas' actions and easily conclude she is simply putting the needs of the Forsaken first. Good and evil aside, a leader looking out for their people is always admirable.
You know what? Screw being civil, you don't understand that.
Slyvannas is the fantasy version of dictators like Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin or Kim Jong Il. She builds up a cult of personality around herself, pretends to care for people that are only there to keep her alive and has everyone who disagrees with her killed.
Post by
morginar
One can look at the history of Sylvanas' actions and easily conclude she is simply putting the needs of the Forsaken first. Good and evil aside, a leader looking out for their people is always admirable.
Slyvannas is the fantasy version of dictators like Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin or Kim Jong Il. She builds up a cult of personality around herself, pretends to care for people that are only there to keep her alive and has everyone who disagrees with her killed.
And Othmar Garitaios is Hitler? (The similarites are endless)
And the cult of the forgotten shadow is non-canon, i belive. And it does not worship Sylvanas. The forsaken revere their leader and she cares for her minions. And those that disagree are not killed (like Barthalomew and Judkins) unless they raise arms against the forsaken (like rotbrain and putress).
One can look at the history of Sylvanas' actions and easily conclude she is simply putting the needs of the Forsaken first. Good and evil aside, a leader looking out for their people is always admirable.
Yet, everyone seems to hate her, even the members of the horde, I wonder why...
I don't.
Post by
Snake387
I don't.
I was talking about the lore charcaters. Some people in real life love bad-ass undead elves, I personally don't know why.
Post by
morginar
I don't.
I was talking about the lore charcaters. Some people in real life love bad-ass undead elves, I personally don't know why.
Lor'thy/Rommy seems firendly with Sylvanas, and the forsaken revere the dark lady.
Edit: I like her not-boring-and-white moral and chaotic evil-ness.
Post by
4dehorde
One can look at the history of Sylvanas' actions and easily conclude she is simply putting the needs of the Forsaken first. Good and evil aside, a leader looking out for their people is always admirable.
You know what? Screw being civil, you don't understand that.
Slyvannas is the fantasy version of dictators like Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin or Kim Jong Il. She builds up a cult of personality around herself, pretends to care for people that are only there to keep her alive and has everyone who disagrees with her killed.
Are you implying you were civil up until now? I laugh.
That's your opinion, and one unsupported by facts at that. Lady Sylvanas has not created a cult to worship her, and she genuinely cares for her people, as numerous quests show, as well as the blood elves, as her singing Lament of the Highborne shows. She has not killed everyone who disagrees with her. Hell, freshly risen undead in Tirisfal Glades are given a choice as to whether or not they wish to join the Forsaken. A choice the minions of the Scourge were never given.
Sylvanas may not be the most noble character, but she is certainly not the most evil either, despite what Alliance fanboys like yourself prefer to believe.
Post by
morginar
Lament of the Highborne
She loves Aleria, a lot. That is what that quest/song shows. Plus some care for the elves too.
Tranquillien shows that she cares for the sin'dorei.
Post by
Snake387
I don't.
I was talking about the lore charcaters. Some people in real life love bad-ass undead elves, I personally don't know why.
Lor'thy/Rommy seems firendly with Sylvanas, and the forsaken revere the dark lady.
Edit: I like her not-boring-and-white moral and chaotic evil-ness.
Lor'themar threatened her and obviously, the forsaken would love her, she's their saviour, but the rest of the horde don't love her all that much.
Post by
morginar
I don't.
I was talking about the lore charcaters. Some people in real life love bad-ass undead elves, I personally don't know why.
Lor'thy/Rommy seems firendly with Sylvanas, and the forsaken revere the dark lady.
Edit: I like her not-boring-and-white moral and chaotic evil-ness.
Lor'themar threatened her and obviously, the forsaken would love her, she's their saviour, but the rest of the horde don't love her all that much.
The darkspear don't seem to mind her using necromancy (Probably becouse trolls use necromancy). And i think they are somewhat friendly.
Blood elves would be friendly with her, somewhat.(The flirt and asking before necroing, tranquillien.)
Post by
Snake387
Yet Vol'Jin doesn't particularly like her and Blood elves are friendly with her yes, but not best buds. In essence, the majority of the horde wouldn't bat an eyelid if she got killed, so long as they gain control of the forsaken, in fact they'd probably have a party celebrating her death.
Post by
Adamsm
It may be canon that Baine said that, but just because he said that it does not make it true. As I said, Baine seems to be terribly misinformed about Taurajo. He doesn't even seem to realize a massacre was committed by Alliance bloodlust./sigh Whatever man, think how you want.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Sylvanas may not be the most noble character, but she is certainly not the most evil either, despite what Alliance fanboys like yourself prefer to believe.
Let me show you an example of just how messed up slyvannas is by comparing her to the scourge and it's champion, arthas menethil, the lich king.
It's recorded that arthas mourned for troops he had to leave behind during the battle for silvermoon.
In the same battle, slyvannas had an inner monologue describing her troops as "Arrows in her quiver".
More of the same
Slyvannas
They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be
used
wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living.
Arthas
"I would not leave my subjects to be slaughtered by this rabble."
Slyvannas is
worse
than the scourge.
And of course, Cult of personality.
Look at the forsaken symbol, it's a picture of slyvannas and a series of arrows. She has her face on their frikking flag.
Not to mention every forsaken npc worships her when you click on them.
Post by
Rankkor
Yes but that's not necessarily good is it? She only cares about people who have something to do with her sentimentally, she'd do nothing for someone else unless her or the people she cares about require it and would happily kill them or desert them if it was in her interests. That isn't trying to be good or being good.
By that definition Genn Greymane is pure evil then. And yet I see nobody pointing fingers at him.
He only cared about the gilneans, and dind't dared to move a finger for anyone else in the alliance, to the point he let them die in droves and didn't cared as long as his people were the ones living.
One can look at the history of Sylvanas' actions and easily conclude she is simply putting the needs of the Forsaken first. Good and evil aside, a leader looking out for their people is always admirable.
You know what? Screw being civil, you don't understand that.
Slyvannas is the fantasy version of dictators like Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin or Kim Jong Il. She builds up a cult of personality around herself, pretends to care for people that are only there to keep her alive and has everyone who disagrees with her killed.
So? The man you worship to rather disturbing degrees, Garithos is FAR worse than her, Since he's a totalitarian racist genocidal maniac. You seem to have no problem with him.
Post by
4dehorde
It may be canon that Baine said that, but just because he said that it does not make it true. As I said, Baine seems to be terribly misinformed about Taurajo. He doesn't even seem to realize a massacre was committed by Alliance bloodlust./sigh Whatever man, think how you want.
When something is proven to be correct, I'll believe it.
Sylvanas may not be the most noble character, but she is certainly not the most evil either, despite what Alliance fanboys like yourself prefer to believe.
Let me show you an example of just how messed up slyvannas is by comparing her to the scourge and it's champion, arthas menethil, the lich king.
It's recorded that arthas mourned for troops he had to leave behind during the battle for silvermoon.
In the same battle, slyvannas had an inner monologue describing her troops as "Arrows in her quiver".
More of the same
Slyvannas
They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be
used
wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living.
Arthas
"I would not leave my subjects to be slaughtered by this rabble."
Slyvannas is
worse
than the scourge.
And of course, Cult of personality.
Look at the forsaken symbol, it's a picture of slyvannas and a series of arrows. She has her face on their frikking flag.
Not to mention every forsaken npc worships her when you click on them.
I can name quests in both Silverpine and Western Plaguelands that rebuke such claims. Sylvanas genuinely cares for her people, as proven time and time again. Nothing you say or do will change that pal. Here is what she says at the end of one such quest where you have to recover insignias from slain Forsaken Troopers:
I will see to it that these insignias are returned to the Undercity at once. The registrar will place their names in our records so that their sacrifice may never be forgotten.
Sure doesn't sound like a cold-hearted monster who sees their followers as mere tools to me.
I already pointed out that unlike the Lich King and the Scourge, the ones Sylvanas has risen into undead are given a choice as to whether or not they wish to serve. Here is proof from a quest where new Forsaken players ask other freshly-risen undead if they want to join the Forsaken:
You've done well, <class>. As you can see, not all of us have resigned to our fates. I'm glad to see that you're at least willing to work.
Valdred will be a valuable asset to the Forsaken. As for the other two... there is not much we can do. We cannot force them to join us.
Unlike the Lich King, who forced countless thousands of undead to be bent to his will, Sylvanas is content to give them a choice. Doesn't sound like she's worse than the Lich King and the Scourge to me.
Again, Sylvanas is not forcing anyone to worship her. Her people revere her because it is their choice. To the Forsaken, Sylvanas is a hero who liberated them from Arthas and the Scourge. They owe her their freedom, and they are eternally grateful. When the Forsaken say, "Victory for Sylvanas" or "Dark Lady watch over you" they say those things because she is a hero to them, a great liberator who deserves their respect.
Post by
Snake387
By that definition Genn Greymane is pure evil then. And yet I see nobody pointing fingers at him.
He only cared about the gilneans, and dind't dared to move a finger for anyone else in the alliance, to the point he let them die in droves and didn't cared as long as his people were the ones living.
But at least Greymane had the decency to say, "Right, I don't want to be part of the Alliance, I'll fight my wars by myself." And when he did join the Alliance again, he started helping them. But Sylvanas would rather milk in the benefits of being in the horde and not lift a finger to help them.
Post by
4dehorde
By that definition Genn Greymane is pure evil then. And yet I see nobody pointing fingers at him.
He only cared about the gilneans, and dind't dared to move a finger for anyone else in the alliance, to the point he let them die in droves and didn't cared as long as his people were the ones living.
But at least Greymane had the decency to say, "Right, I don't want to be part of the Alliance, I'll fight my wars by myself." And when he did join the Alliance again, he started helping them. But Sylvanas would rather milk in the benefits of being in the horde and not lift a finger to help them.
Its not like the Forsaken haven't done anything beneficial for the Horde since they joined. For one, they have given the Horde a large amount of extra manpower. The size of the Forsaken army rivals that of Orgrimmar's. But aside from obvious stuff, the Forsaken have gone out of their way to assist their allies on more than one occasion. A notable example is Forsaken apothecaries studying the blood of Fel Orcs in Hellfire Peninsula. It didn't really matter to the Forsaken one way or another how or why more Orcs were cursed with demon blood since the death of Mannoroth, but it was important to the Orcs and they helped them solve the mystery.
Another example is the town of Tranquillien. Forsaken dispatched by Sylvanas herself to help the Blood Elves fight the threats in the Ghostlands. I find it almost heartwarming to see the two races working together. I also feel a sense of pride. Two races, betrayed and left scarred by the Scourge, working side-by-side. Sylvanas herself also played a role in getting Warchief Thrall to admit the Blood Elves into the Horde.
The Forsaken may put their needs first, but they aren't completely neglectful of their allies.
Post by
Snake387
I already established that the Forsaken help the Blood Elves for Sylvanas's own reasons and I suspect that Sylvanas only helps the Horde when she is forced to (i.e. the rest of the horde threaten her) or it is beneficial for her and the forsaken.
Post by
Adamsm
When something is proven to be correct, I'll believe it.As any any new Lore from the Books instantly trumps whatever lore there was before, it's already been proven correct and true.It didn't really matter to the Forsaken one way or another how or why more Orcs were cursed with demon blood since the death of Mannoroth, but it was important to the Orcs and they helped them solve the mystery. Of course, they were doing that to find new and interesting ways to kill other races...but hey, what can you do.
Another example is the town of Tranquillien. Forsaken dispatched by Sylvanas herself to help the Blood Elves fight the threats in the Ghostlands. I find it almost heartwarming to see the two races working together. I also feel a sense of pride. Two races, betrayed and left scarred by the Scourge, working side-by-side. Sylvanas herself also played a role in getting Warchief Thrall to admit the Blood Elves into the Horde.And yet, now a days(read since Cata), Lor'themar does not trust them; after all, he had been speaking with Varian about possibly having the Blood Elves leave the Horde and rejoin the Alliance....until Jaina screwed that up.
Post by
Lordplatypus
So? The man you worship to rather disturbing degrees, Garithos is FAR worse than her, Since he's a totalitarian racist genocidal maniac. You seem to have no problem with him.
I don't worship the man.
He's faulted but at least he does what he has to, his objective is to save lordaeron.
That is enough for me to have a positive opinion of him.
The fact that he's practically the first ret paladin with his class, he somehow beat the scourge all the way to lordaeron and likely retook it before he got mind controlled and the fact that it was his death that proved to me slyvannas cannot be trusted at all is why i remember him and reference him so much.
I can name quests in both Silverpine and Western Plaguelands that rebuke such claims. Sylvanas genuinely cares for her people, as proven time and time again. Nothing you say or do will change that pal. Here is what she says at the end of one such quest where you have to recover insignias from slain Forsaken Troopers:
First off, that's what she's saying.
Which dictator outright admits s/he doesn't give a rat's ass about his/her people?
Second off, In-game lore has to be bent for gameplay and thus goes second to book/storyline lore.
Another example is the town of Tranquillien. Forsaken dispatched by Sylvanas herself to help the Blood Elves fight the threats in the Ghostlands. I find it almost heartwarming to see the two races working together. I also feel a sense of pride. Two races, betrayed and left scarred by the Scourge, working side-by-side. Sylvanas herself also played a role in getting Warchief Thrall to admit the Blood Elves into the Horde.
We all know slyvannas just wanted more arrows to shoot at arthas, you just have to look at lor'themar's short story to see she's using the blood elves as extra fodder.
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