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10.2.5
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10.2.6
Organized Religion, the Bible and the Will of God
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Post by
Ksero
in the UK
, there was a 10% increase in the number of people without a religion in the last 10 years, it may not be "dying" but it is on the decline.
That's the problem, you are assume a lot things that I never said, notice how the post starts with "In the UK" and never suggests anything more than that.
Post by
Gone
in the UK
, there was a 10% increase in the number of people without a religion in the last 10 years, it may not be "dying" but it is on the decline.
That's the problem, you are assume a lot things that I never said, notice how the post starts with "In the UK" and never suggests anything more than that.
You were responding to a comment about religion on the whole dying, and you ended your comment with "it may not be dying, but it's on the decline."
It came off like you were referring to religion on a global basis, and using the UK as an example.
Post by
Monday
Sorry Ryja, I fail to see where I said anything false, I said religion was on the decline, which means there are less people then before who believe in it, I posted an example which supported my hypothesis, and I know there is much more supporting information out there, but as with our debate on evolution I have a feeling there will never be enough data for you to give any credence to what I said. If you refuse to accept observationally collected data then I have no reason to talk to you.
You posted a percentage. Different countries are increasing in population at different rates, and some are sinking. You cannot use a percentage as an integer. It simply doesn't work.
Now, if you were to find a statistic somewhere stating that, out of all the world, there are less religious people than before, I would be more inclined to believe you. As it is, it's entirely possible that there are more religious
people
out there, but some countries are seeing a rise in the percentage of atheists.
However, you posted merely a single country, which has a less than 1% population growth. Unless you were to cite other countries growing at a faster rate and possessing more people, your argument will remain suspect.
Post by
Ksero
benzene
in the UK
, there was a 10% increase in the number of people without a religion in the last 10 years, it may not be "dying" but it is on the decline.
That's the problem, you are assume a lot things that I never said, notice how the post starts with "In the UK" and never suggests anything more than that.
Post by
Monday
1) Religion as a whole is not dying. Something like 90% of the people in the world are religious in some way. There are more people of faith on the planet now than there have ever been.
in the UK, there was a 10% increase in the number of people without a religion in the last 10 years, it may not be "dying" but it is on the decline.
Your comment was a direct response to Ryja's. In doing so, you implied a connection between the two. If you didn't mean to make that sort of connection, one would wonder why you had posted it at all.
Post by
Ksero
My point was religion is on the decline in some areas, I was simply pointing out why someone could think it was "dying." Everthing else was incorrectly inferred by you and ryja.
Post by
Monday
Or, perhaps, you should focus on your clarity. The obvious choice was that you were claiming religion as declining completely, and citing the UK as an example. If you wished to only speak of the UK, then I highly suggest making that distinction. Ryja was talking about the world, and, again, your reply was directly to him. Most would assume that you were debating on the same grounds as he was, instead of making a point only tangentially related to the topic at hand.
Post by
Ksero
Or, perhaps, you should focus on your clarity. The obvious choice was that you were claiming religion as declining completely, and citing the UK as an example. If you wished to only speak of the UK, then I highly suggest making that distinction. Ryja was talking about the world, and, again, your reply was directly to him. Most would assume that you were debating on the same grounds as he was, instead of making a point only tangentially related to the topic at hand.
That was only the obvious choice to you and Ryja because that's what you wanted to see. I get called out whenever i infer anything beyond what someone has directly posted, but when someone does it to me it is my fault?
Post by
Monday
that's what you wanted to see
I get called out whenever i infer anything beyond what someone has directly posted, but when someone does it to me it is my fault?
If you're going to bloody infer something, then it should be clear that you're deviating from the topic, instead of phrasing it as a response to something already going, now shouldn't it?
Post by
asakawa
This all seems a particularly fruitless line of discussion that was tangential to any meaningful point anyway. Could we draw a line under it and move on?
Post by
Ksero
Yeah, I'm done debating things here, apparently I will never have enough evidence to support the conclusions I draw, and the majority of people here seem to think I'm inherently wrong to the point of attacking my posts for things they do not say, even after fully explaining myself multiple times, this is the 3rd thread I've been forced out of this week because people seem to have a personal vendetta against me, and/or my point of view, as I can see I'm not wanted here, so there is no further reason to post.
Post by
MyTie
I will never have enough evidence to support the conclusions I drawSame here.the majority of people here seem to think I'm inherently wrongSame here.to the point of attacking my posts for things they do not saySame here.even after fully explaining myself multiple timesSame here.people seem to have a personal vendetta against meSame here.and/or my point of viewSame here.as I can see I'm not wanted hereBig highlighted "SAME HERE".
The difference is, I don't feel that this is a reason to leave. I don't invest in popularity, and I won't be intimidated out of threads, or into believing something different. Learn to enjoy being who you are, and believing what you believe, even when isolated, especially when isolated.
Post by
asakawa
Having the last word wasn't really what I meant my 'drawing a line under it' but MyTie is right; state your opinion in the most clear and well-thought-out way you can and don't take criticism personally. If you feel your point wasn't understood then try to find a better way to get it across. If your point was understood but disagreed with then you can choose to attempt to persuade others to your way of thinking or move on.
Perhaps now we can leave that tangent behind?
Post by
Juuzou
Don't bite mate. Either Casper is trolling (very badly), or is too young to have read about basic physics yet.
Thank you for your reply, was hoping for something like that.
I was just trying to make as much sense as
most
religious people...
Just posted my opinion you know
snip
For the record, generalizations are never good. For example, if I thought that all 14 year olds were idiots based on what I've read from you, that would be a generalization.
No need to get mad... lol...
Also, wassup with all your filthy accusations, lol
Even tho' I believe there's a God(s?), I just haaaaaate the logic of people, wherein they make up something and S
CREAM for attention
to other people, saying their bullpoop is correct and any other bullpoop is not...
Incase anyone will keep reporting my freakin' posts, this is a forum, a place where you share your opinion; this is a thread about religion; I've just posted my opinion about it
Post by
MyTie
saying their bullpoop is correct and any other bullpoop is not...
It so vogue and popular to say that we shouldn't say that anyone else is incorrect, and that all beliefs are equal. However, not all beliefs are equal, and it is impossible for at least some people to not be incorrect. Some people say there is a God, some say there isn't. That means that some people are going to be wrong, as not everyone can be right. Some people say that Jesus is a prophet, and Mohammad is a prophet, and other people say that Jesus is the Messiah, and don't recognize Mohammad as a prophet. Some people are wrong there. Further, the nature of having a belief that something is right, is to also hold the belief that the opposite is wrong.
As for beliefs being equal, it isn't equal to believe in the FSM as it is to believe in God, from a religious standpoint. It isn't equal to believe in something professed to be satire and intentional fiction as it is to believe in something that at least stands a chance to have been written by the omnipotent. It also isn't equal to believe in a Messiah that tells you to love your neighbor, as it is to believe in a prophet that tells you to kill anyone who doesn't believe his words.
So, it sounds really good to wring your hands, and lament that we all can't believe everything, and treat each other's beliefs as equal, but a quick trip around the brain using logic, along with a dash of reality, lets us know that simply doesn't work. We might have disagreements as to which is the right way, but that doesn't immediately follow that everything is the right way, or that every belief is deserving of equal amount of respectful thought.
Post by
Skreeran
I'd like to take apart you post a bit, MyTie. There are bits in there that I agree with, and bits I don't agree with.
It so vogue and popular to say that we shouldn't say that anyone else is incorrect, and that all beliefs are equal.First of all, for someone who doesn't like being condescended upon, this is pretty condescending. At least on this forum, people generally have put a lot of thought into their philosophy.
However, not all beliefs are equal, and it is impossible for at least some people to not be incorrect. Some people say there is a God, some say there isn't. That means that some people are going to be wrong, as not everyone can be right. Some people say that Jesus is a prophet, and Mohammad is a prophet, and other people say that Jesus is the Messiah, and don't recognize Mohammad as a prophet. Some people are wrong there. Further, the nature of having a belief that something is right, is to also hold the belief that the opposite is wrong.I can agree with this though. Naturally, not all beliefs can be correct. I don't believe in God, and you do. In order for you to be right, I must be wrong.
As for beliefs being equal, it isn't equal to believe in the FSM as it is to believe in God, from a religious standpoint. It isn't equal to believe in something professed to be satire and intentional fiction as it is to believe in something that at least stands a chance to have been written by the omnipotent.I can agree with this as well. The Flying Spaghetti Monster has a documented origin in fiction, and is clearly meant as satire, so I wouldn't call it equal to an actual faith rooted in ancient traditions.
It also isn't equal to believe in a Messiah that tells you to love your neighbor, as it is to believe in a prophet that tells you to kill anyone who doesn't believe his words.And this is where you lost me. I could dig up any number of passages in the Bible telling you to kill people for witchcraft, apostasy, or homosexuality, but since you're a Christian, you would naturally tell me that I didn't understand the context.
So, with you not being a Muslim, I would ask for you not to cherry pick from their faith either.
So, it sounds really good to wring your hands, and lament that we all can't believe everything, and treat each other's beliefs as equal, but a quick trip around the brain using logic, along with a dash of reality, lets us know that simply doesn't work. We might have disagreements as to which is the right way, but that doesn't immediately follow that everything is the right way, or that every belief is deserving of equal amount of respectful thought.Here's the thing though. Even though not all beliefs can be right, isn't it a good idea to be respectful to other beliefs, even if you believe they are wrong? I think you're wrong, but I try to be respectful to Christians nonetheless. My family is Messianc Jewish, but I don't have to tell they they're wrong every time we hold the Shabbat ceremony.
Our beliefs may be mutually exclusive, but out of respect, I let you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. I don't do it because it's trendy or popular, but because I think that you have probably put a lot of time and effort and passion into defining what you believe, and I think you're qualified to decide for yourself.
Post by
MyTie
First of all, for someone who doesn't like being condescended upon, this is pretty condescending. At least on this forum, people generally have put a lot of thought into their philosophy.I'm not saying we should go around comparing people's beliefs to dragons.And this is where you lost me. I could dig up any number of passages in the Bible telling you to kill people for witchcraft, apostasy, or homosexuality, but since you're a Christian, you would naturally tell me that I didn't understand the context.
So, with you not being a Muslim, I would ask for you not to cherry pick from their faith either.I've taken the time to study both religions. I have context for them both. You won't find anything in Christianity that says to stone anyone. You might find something in Hebrew national law, but thankfully, the flawed law was made obsolete by the new covenant. Don't just pass this over as pure bias. I can show you where it says what it says.
Here's the thing though. Even though not all beliefs can be right, isn't it a good idea to be respectful to other beliefs, even if you believe they are wrong? I think you're wrong, but I try to be respectful to Christians nonetheless. My family is Messianc Jewish, but I don't have to tell they they're wrong every time we hold the Shabbat ceremony.
Our beliefs may be mutually exclusive, but out of respect, I let you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. I don't do it because it's trendy or popular, but because I think that you have probably put a lot of time and effort and passion into defining what you believe, and I think you're qualified to decide for yourself.
You've confused respecting beliefs and respecting people. It's a fine line, and we must walk it with care. Explaining to a Jew that his beliefs are as dumb as believing in the FSM, or Harry Potter, is disrespectful to the person. But, drawing into question actions of the characters in Jewish history, or application of different Torah passages, is respecting the person, but not requiring that you respect the religion. I'm not saying that people themselves should be disrespected, but don't expect to come into a debate with "Jedi" as your religion and have your religion taken as seriously as Catholicism, though I would disagree with both, they aren't equal in esteem, though the people who believe them should both be treated equally. Does this make sense?
Post by
MrMojoRisin
And this is where you lost me. I could dig up any number of passages in the Bible telling you to kill people for witchcraft, apostasy, or homosexuality, but since you're a Christian, you would naturally tell me that I didn't understand the context.
So, with you not being a Muslim, I would ask for you not to cherry pick from their faith either.
I would also like to point out, along with what MyTie said, that the Muslim directive to "kill or convert" the infidel, is not exactly "cherry picking". It is as much a part of Islam as John 3:16 is to Christianity. However, the Christian faith leaves judgement up to God for those that do not believe in Him. Islam teaches that judgement should come from its followers. In the end, the result is the same, one group is going to be dammed, and one isn't. But in the meantime, I do not have much support for the group that expresses their faith by blowing up innocent people in their gods name.
Post by
Ksero
And this is where you lost me. I could dig up any number of passages in the Bible telling you to kill people for witchcraft, apostasy, or homosexuality, but since you're a Christian, you would naturally tell me that I didn't understand the context.
So, with you not being a Muslim, I would ask for you not to cherry pick from their faith either.
I would also like to point out, along with what MyTie said, that the Muslim directive to "kill or convert" the infidel, is not exactly "cherry picking". It is as much a part of Islam as John 3:16 is to Christianity. However, the Christian faith leaves judgement up to God for those that do not believe in Him. Islam teaches that judgement should come from its followers. In the end, the result is the same, one group is going to be dammed, and one isn't. But in the meantime, I do not have much support for the group that expresses their faith by blowing up innocent people in their gods name.
So much blatant ignorance in this post, you have been brainwashed the media if you actually believe that the majority of Muslims think that way.
Post by
Adamsm
But in the meantime, I do not have much support for the group that expresses their faith by blowing up innocent people in their gods name.
And I don't have much support for a group that pickets dead soldiers funerals and tell them that God decreed they deserved to die.
If you don't get it; just as Westboro does not speak for all Christians, the extremest Muslims do not speak for the entire religion.
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