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Organized Religion, the Bible and the Will of God
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Post by
Skreeran
Would you be okay if, the day you died, your family found pure truth in Islam and rushed to convert your eternal soul to that faith and away from what you had believed and practiced your whole life?I would be okay with that, because I don't have an eternal soul.
Post by
Adamsm
Insult to whom?
The dead.
Post by
Gone
Would you be okay if, the day you died, your family found pure truth in Islam and rushed to convert your eternal soul to that faith and away from what you had believed and practiced your whole life?
It wouldn't make any difference to me. God cares about your actions in life, not about trivial things that happen to your body after your dead.
Post by
Skreeran
Insult to whom?
The dead.Maybe that might offend dead Hindubuddhawiccans, but as an atheist, I wouldn't be insulted at all.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Insult to whom?
The dead.
How can a being that has ceased to exist be insulted?
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
How can a being that has ceased to exist be insulted?
The memory for one; if a person had lived their entire life following a path, and then after they die, their family decides to throw that to the side and do what they want, it seems like a massive insult to me.
Post by
Skreeran
How can a being that has ceased to exist be insulted?
The memory for one; if a person had lived their entire life following a path, and then after they die, their family decides to throw that to the side and do what they want, it seems like a massive insult to me.But assuming atheism, which we seem to be doing, the person in question isn't really in a position to care about their memory, or really about anything at all.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
How can a being that has ceased to exist be insulted?
The memory for one; if a person had lived their entire life following a path, and then after they die, their family decides to throw that to the side and do what they want, it seems like a massive insult to me.
I have yet to meet a memory that has been bothered about being insulted. Insulting inanimate things or ideas is hardly a moral issue.
Post by
Gone
Would you be okay if, the day you died, your family found pure truth in Islam and rushed to convert your eternal soul to that faith and away from what you had believed and practiced your whole life?
It wouldn't make any difference to me. God cares about your actions in life, not about trivial things that happen to your body after your dead.
What if he does care? I mean, in someone else's faith.
I guess you can't answer that. But it would suck to be on your way in to paradise and the gate keeper goes "nope, no batized people."
I can't say, it would depend on the faith in question and the nuances of the criteria that I believed God used to judge. But from my own Christian faith, or as an atheist, I wouldn't care.
@asakawa
I notice you kind of take things like this personally, when you believe religion may impact or influence what you believe is your own, even if it's in an arbitrary sense. I remember you got offended when MyTie said that marriage was something he believed was designed by God, like it somehow detracted from your own marriage.
Post by
Gone
The memory for one
Who else would this memory even matter to besides their loved ones though?
Post by
Magician22773
Most everything that is done after a person dies is done for the living, not the dead. I don't think the dead person cares about how nice of a funeral they have, or how many thousands of dollars the box they are buried in costs. Yet every day, families have extravagant services and spend thousands of dollars on coffins.
I would see this much the same. If you have chosen to live life as an atheist, or other faith, but your family has chosen a different path, what they are doing is for them. If their belief is that they can save you after death, then I say let them.
Depending on your beliefs, it makes no difference what someone does after your death in regards to salvation. I realize that some faiths believe that the living can affect God's response to the dead....my faith does not. If you chose not to accept Christ, your fate is sealed, and baptizing you is going to do nothing more than clean your dead body.
If it makes you feel any better, I don't think any organized religion believe that any ritual performed after death is going to save a soul that has spent a lifetime denying God. If they do, they must be reading a different book than I am, because the rules are pretty clear.
Post by
Squishalot
Let's consider the flip side - if as a committed Christian, you wanted to be buried in a cathedral graveyard, and instead, they took your body out to sea and dumped it over the edge, would that be disrespectful? I agree it won't impact any after-life, but it's the concept of your family choosing a different path after your death.
Post by
Gone
Let's consider the flip side - if as a committed Christian, you wanted to be buried in a cathedral graveyard, and instead, they took your body out to sea and dumped it over the edge, would that be disrespectful? I agree it won't impact any after-life, but it's the concept of your family choosing a different path after your death.
That's a bad example. How would my family throwing my body in the ocean give them any kind of comfort? The argument here has been using the example of a Christian family baptizing an atheist.
Now if my family were Vikings, and they put me in a boat and lit it on fire, I would still wind up in the sea, and no I wouldn't have a problem with that.
To use a more realistic example, if I was a Christian, and my family were Muslims, and preformed some kind of Islamic burial rights on my body after I died, then no I wouldn't care, and I wouldn't find it disrespectful.
Post by
Skreeran
Again, I can only speak for myself, but I really don't think any of my wishes or thoughts or memories matter to me after I'm dead. They could cut me up and eat me, and while sure, that might not be what I wanted when I was alive, it really doesn't matter to me once I'm dead, because I'm dead and who cares?
As an atheist, I don't understand why any value would be assigned to my wishes after I'm dead, because I'm no longer there to notice or care. It's up to the people who are still alive to think and feel to think and feel whether or not I'm treated right.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Let's consider the flip side - if as a committed Christian, you wanted to be buried in a cathedral graveyard, and instead, they took your body out to sea and dumped it over the edge, would that be disrespectful? I agree it won't impact any after-life, but it's the concept of your family choosing a different path after your death.
If this is a response to me, I'm speaking about people who believe in no afterlife. Given that the Christian view is that the person still exists as a rational being, that seems to definitely leave the door open or insult or disrespect.
Post by
Squishalot
That's a bad example. How would my family throwing my body in the ocean give them any kind of comfort? The argument here has been using the example of a Christian family baptizing an atheist.
It's actually a very realistic example. Many people are cremated and their ashes flung out to sea. Then again, it could be a cultural thing - our cities in Australia are seaborne for the most part.
Let's consider the flip side - if as a committed Christian, you wanted to be buried in a cathedral graveyard, and instead, they took your body out to sea and dumped it over the edge, would that be disrespectful? I agree it won't impact any after-life, but it's the concept of your family choosing a different path after your death.
If this is a response to me, I'm speaking about people who believe in no afterlife. Given that the Christian view is that the person still exists as a rational being, that seems to definitely leave the door open or insult or disrespect.
It's a general response. So with that in mind, would it be disrespectful to baptize a Muslim after he died? I didn't read anything in your replies that suggested it had anything to do with the person's beliefs, seeing as you were talking to Adamsm, not Skreeran.
Post by
Gone
That's a bad example. How would my family throwing my body in the ocean give them any kind of comfort? The argument here has been using the example of a Christian family baptizing an atheist.
It's actually a very realistic example. Many people are cremated and their ashes flung out to sea. Then again, it could be a cultural thing - our cities in Australia are seaborne for the most part.
Well the way you phrased it, "taking them out to sea and dumping them over the edge", I imagined myself being tossed overboard with a bunch of garbage. No I wouldn't have a problem if my family cremated me.
I guess going directly against the deceased's wishes can be construed as disrespectful. But I also think, for an atheist or anybody else who doesn't believe that what happens to their body effects them in an afterlife, denying a wish that wouldn't effect you at all, and would give some measure of comfort to your family, is selfish.
Post by
Squishalot
I guess going directly against the deceased's wishes can be construed as disrespectful. But I also think, for an atheist or anybody else who doesn't believe that what happens to their body effects them in an afterlife, denying a wish that wouldn't effect you at all, and would give some measure of comfort to your family, is selfish.
All I'm saying is that the flip side is equally selfish. Elura makes a really fundamental point - what if you don't want to spend an eternity with God? What if baptising a Muslim means he doesn't get his eternal salvation?(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
It's a general response. So with that in mind, would it be disrespectful to baptize a Muslim after he died?
I don't know. I know very little about Islamic beliefs in the afterlife. That would be something to ask a Muslim.
I didn't read anything in your replies that suggested it had anything to do with the person's beliefs, seeing as you were talking to Adamsm, not Skreeran.
I would point you at
my original post
(a reply to Asakawa, no Adamsm), which is clearly asking a question dealing with idea of "a being that has ceased to exist." I was as clear and succinct as I could be with that question. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it might have anything to do with a set of beliefs that holds existence after death.
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