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Do you believe in God?
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Post by
Skreeran
If God exists, and is definable in the Biblical sense as "I AM", then what is our best conjecture for what God
is
?What?
Post by
MyTie
If God exists, and is definable in the Biblical sense as "I AM", then what is our best conjecture for what God
is
?What?
If the Biblical God exists, what is He?
Post by
Skreeran
If God exists, and is definable in the Biblical sense as "I AM", then what is our best conjecture for what God
is
?What?
If the Biblical God exists, what is He?That seems kinda like asking "If aliens exist, what color are they?"
Without any way of knowing, conjecture seems baseless.
Except seeing that Biblical God is seemingly outside of the universe, it's more of a question of what form he would choose to take, which is seemingly based on context (he's taken a number of different forms in the Bible, IIRC). As for his "natural" form, I don't think that's really even a question with an imaginable answer, without knowing more about the medium our universe exists in.
Post by
Skreeran
What do you guys think of
The National Day of Prayer?
Post by
Adamsm
What do you guys think of
The National Day of Prayer?
As long as I don't have to pray to the Christian God, I'm okay with it.
Post by
Skreeran
What do you guys think of
The National Day of Prayer?
As long as I don't have to pray to the Christian God, I'm okay with it.I just don't like the president appealing for me to pray to anyone.
Post by
MyTie
If God exists, and is definable in the Biblical sense as "I AM", then what is our best conjecture for what God
is
?What?
If the Biblical God exists, what is He?That seems kinda like asking "If aliens exist, what color are they?"
Without any way of knowing, conjecture seems baseless.
Except seeing that Biblical God is seemingly outside of the universe, it's more of a question of what form he would choose to take, which is seemingly based on context (he's taken a number of different forms in the Bible, IIRC). As for his "natural" form, I don't think that's really even a question with an imaginable answer, without knowing more about the medium our universe exists in.
Well, Skree, I don't think this question is that unknowable. God said that He made man in His image, so I don't think He isn't without image, or chooses various images. God, at least the Biblical God, speaks, walks, sits, etc. He has body parts, such as calves, eyes, hands, etc.
The question ISN'T what is He physically, but more of what is His nature, which is the difficult part.
Post by
Adamsm
I just don't like the president appealing for me to pray to anyone.
Don't then, just do a standard prayer for your friends who are still in the military that they come home safe, whether it's to an actual Divine Being or not; the thought should count shouldn't it?
I mean, at this time in the world, you'd think they would have changed the wording to 'Pray to the one you believe in' since quite a few religions don't have just one god after all.
Post by
Skreeran
@MyTie
Well, depending on how philosophical you want to get about it, it can be a very difficult to answer question. Talking about Biblical God, he describes his nature in the Bible, but if you really want to get abstract, you can't take his word for it. I could tell you on this forum that I'm a 6'7" blonde female Russian Olympic Gymnast, but that would be a lie, because I am literally none of those things. To make assumptions about Biblical God, you first have to assume that everything He says is true.
After that, to my knowledge, the Bible paints a pretty good personality and qualities, i.e. he's omnipotent (there is nothing he can't do, barring silly questions involving heavy rocks), omniscient (or nigh-omniscient, depending on how you interpret free-will), and omnibenevolent (he has no evil qualities, only good ones). He is loving and just, but merciful and compassionate.
But I suspect when you say "nature," you mean more than just personality and abilities. Well, some people believe in the Trinity, but others (like my mother) think that's basically polytheism (before you ask, no I don't completely understand what she believes, and so am incapable of defending it for her).
TL;DR You can build a model of what He's supposed to be based on the Bible, but beyond that we can't really know without just guessing.
Overall, I don't believe He exists in the first place, so I can't really argue about what he is beyond the established mythos He's written in.
I just don't like the president appealing for me to pray to anyone.
Don't then, just do a standard prayer for your friends who are still in the military that they come home safe, whether it's to an actual Divine Being or not; the thought should count shouldn't it?
I mean, at this time in the world, you'd think they would have changed the wording to 'Pray to the one you believe in' since quite a few religions don't have just one god after all.I don't pray at all. I can
hope
that my friends come home safely, but I don't think that has any effect on whether they do or not.
Like I said, my problem is that "Pray to whoever you believe in," is still too exclusive, in my opinion, because I don't believe in any gods, spirits, or supernatural beings at all. A national kindness day, or a national day of remembrance (what Memorial Day used to be before it became "National Barbeque Day") I could get behind, but the National Day of Prayer bothers me.
It's not as if it were just a day that Americans exercise their right to pray to whomever they pray to. It's the President, who is supposed to be representative of
all
Americans to the best of his ability, getting up and appealing that I pray to someone. It creates this artificial divide between Americans by telling religious people to pray and nonbelievers to go stand outside until the others are finished.
Post by
MyTie
you first have to assume that everything He says is true... He's... omnibenevolent (he has no evil qualities, only good ones)I really have a hard time discussing the Biblical God with people who haven't studied the Bible, for reasons like this. First, you suggest that perhaps the Biblical God lies to us, then go on to recognize that the Biblical God has no evil qualities. Don't you see the contradiction? Either the Biblical God isn't lying, or He isn't the Biblical God. "Perfect being says X, but how do we know that it isn't a lie"Overall, I don't believe He exists in the first place, so I can't really argue about what he is beyond the established mythos He's written in.
Ok.It's not as if it were just a day that Americans exercise their right to pray to whomever they pray to. It's the President, who is supposed to be representative of
all
Americans to the best of his ability, getting up and appealing that I pray to someone. It creates this artificial divide between Americans by telling religious people to pray and nonbelievers to go stand outside until the others are finished.
That must be terrible for you.
Post by
Skreeran
you first have to assume that everything He says is true... He's... omnibenevolent (he has no evil qualities, only good ones)I really have a hard time discussing the Biblical God with people who haven't studied the Bible, for reasons like this. First, you suggest that perhaps the Biblical God lies to us, then go on to recognize that the Biblical God has no evil qualities. Don't you see the contradiction? Either the Biblical God isn't lying, or He isn't the Biblical God. "Perfect being says X, but how do we know that it isn't a lie."First of all, I
have
studied the Bible, quite thoroughly in fact, I just haven't refreshed my knowledge in several years (beyond the odd verse or chapter here and there for argument's sake). I'd rather you didn't presume things like that about me, especially since, to my knowledge, you are aware of my background as an ex-christian.
Second, you have completely misunderstood me. I said that he
could
be lying, but in order to use what's in the Bible, you have to assume what he's saying is true. God says that he has no evil qualities, and we have no choice but to believe he's telling the truth. Someone with evil qualities could just as easily say they have only good qualities without causing a logical contradiction, because lying is an evil act.
It's like the classic logic puzzle of the man who says "I only tell the truth."
The reason I even bring up this possibility is because I'm trying to examine all possibilities, and one of those is that there is a being who created the universe, and wrote the Bible about himself, but who wasn't being completely honest.
Do I think that's true? Of course not. But for the purpose of philosophical discussion, I considered it in my post.
It's not as if it were just a day that Americans exercise their right to pray to whomever they pray to. It's the President, who is supposed to be representative of
all
Americans to the best of his ability, getting up and appealing that I pray to someone. It creates this artificial divide between Americans by telling religious people to pray and nonbelievers to go stand outside until the others are finished.
That must be terrible for you.The sarcasm is strong with this one.
Post by
MyTie
I see. I was under the assumption we were talking about the Biblical God, not all possibilities of deity.
Post by
Gone
What do you guys think of
The National Day of Prayer?
As long as I don't have to pray to the Christian God, I'm okay with it.I just don't like the president appealing for me to pray to anyone.
Does it really hurt you?
I followed the wiki links you left, I get the lawsuit the FFRF filed, although I'm glad it was overturned. I think that leaving a sign next to a nativity scene on Christmas that reads
At this season of the Winter Solstice may reason prevail.
There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell.
There is only our natural world.
Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
is kind of disgusting. "No Gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven, no Hell". Nobody who takes comfort in their faith during the holidays wants to see that &*!@. And putting it next to a nativity scene is just obvious trolling.
Post by
Skreeran
I see. I was under the assumption we were talking about the Biblical God, not all possibilities of deity.What I said is that the deity that wrote the Bible may or may not in reality have the qualities described in the Bible. To
use
the Bible to form a model, you have to start with the axiom that the Bible is true.
What do you guys think of
The National Day of Prayer?
As long as I don't have to pray to the Christian God, I'm okay with it.I just don't like the president appealing for me to pray to anyone.
Does it really hurt you?The real issue, though, isn't whether or not it really hurts me. The issue is that the United States government is supposed to protect religion, not endorse it. That's why we have a Separation of Church and State.
Imagine if it were the reverse: imagine if atheists were the majority and American had a "National Day of Lack of Religion" in which the atheist president appealed to everyone to take a moment of their day to not do anything religious at all.
It's silly, I know, but it's the best I can do on short notice. My point is that the Constitution has been interpreted to keep Church and State separate for a reason. Religion is a private matter that one practices in their own way, and is not compelled by the government to follow any particular religion or doctrine at all. I feel that the National Day of Prayer is unconstitutional because it involves the government stepping in and appealing to all Americans, including non-believers and those who religion doesn't involve prayer, to
pray
. That's a violation of the Separation of Church and State.
And to answer your question, no, it doesn't
really
hurt me. It's frustration having an entire government-endorsed day that reinforces the fact that I'm in a minority.
Post by
Gone
The real issue, though, isn't whether or not it really hurts me. The issue is that the United States government is supposed to protect religion, not endorse it. That's why we have a Separation of Church and State.
Imagine if it were the reverse: imagine if atheists were the majority and American had a "National Day of Lack of Religion" in which the atheist president appealed to everyone to take a moment of their day to not do anything religious at all.
It's silly, I know, but it's the best I can do on short notice. My point is that the Constitution has been interpreted to keep Church and State separate for a reason. Religion is a private matter that one practices in their own way, and is not compelled by the government to follow any particular religion or doctrine at all. I feel that the National Day of Prayer is unconstitutional because it involves the government stepping in and appealing to all Americans, including non-believers and those who religion doesn't involve prayer, to pray. That's a violation of the Separation of Church and State.
And to answer your question, no, it doesn't really hurt me. It's frustration having an entire government-endorsed day that reinforces the fact that I'm in a minority.
I see where you're coming from. But I guess I would counter by saying that it's not an endorsement of any one particular religion over another, so I don't know if it's really violating the separation of church and state. I don't think it's meant to make atheists feel isolated so much as to provide the religious community a feeling of unity and comfort, as well as the possibility that prayer really does make a difference.
How is it any different that St. Patricks Day, or Black History Month? You don't see a lot of non Irish or non Blacks getting bent out of shape by those two holidays.
Post by
MyTie
To
use
the Bible to form a model, you have to start with the axiom that the Bible is true.Really? The axiom was understood. When I am talking about the nature of the Biblical God, the understood axiom is that the Biblical God is the Biblical God.
Yeah. That's what we've been talking about for a long time now. /sigh. I'll just preface all of my arguments with that from now on.
"If the Bible is true", then the Biblical God would be...
That makes as MUCH sense as "The Biblical God would be...", but I can see how you as an atheist enjoy the preface. It is tiresome, and repetitive, though. But, if it makes you feel better.
You know, we could have a post, every page, explaining how some people DON'T believe in the Bible, and that there is no proof for it. Maybe then we could actually discuss other stuff, after we get it out of the way. I just feel like every time I discuss religion with atheists, it's
very
difficult to move past this. Even when I do, it turns into this huge stumbling block. As soon as we get going discussing something, we need a nod to the possibility that it all is made up, and how you don't believe it. I simply cannot discuss my beliefs on the matter without conceding that it's not the only belief. Who on earth feels that their beliefs are the only beliefs anyway?
I guess I'm just really disappointed. I had a legitimate question, one that could be examined by those who have studied the Bible, and you've drawn it back to this. Square 1. This is where all debates about religion with atheists end up, and refuse to move on from. There's no proof for either side, so it just stays, stagnate.
Post by
Squishalot
is kind of disgusting. "No Gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven, no Hell". Nobody who takes comfort in their faith during the holidays wants to see that &*!@. And putting it next to a nativity scene is just obvious trolling.
I'm going to turn this around for you. Does it really hurt you? If so, what about it makes it hurtful?
Post by
Skreeran
I guess I'm just really disappointed. I had a legitimate question, one that could be examined by those who have studied the Bible, and you've drawn it back to this. Square 1. This is where all debates about religion with atheists end up, and refuse to move on from. There's no proof for either side, so it just stays, stagnate.I feel like you're putting words into my mouth. I wasn't saying "Well I don't think he exists in the first place blah blah blah." I was just mentioning, for the sake of a philosophical discussion, that the character of the deity of that wrote the Bible can only be interpreted through the Bible.
Can we know what God is like? Sure,
IF
the things he wrote about himself are true, otherwise, no. That's all I'm saying.
Post by
Adamsm
And the Bible was written by mere mortals, with mortal perception and thoughts colouring everything that was put down; an we all know that mortals are flawed.
Post by
MyTie
I feel like you're putting words into my mouth.
This is assuming that you have a mouth at all. Perhaps you were born without one and eat with a feeding tube. You have to list the axiom that you have a mouth.
Or we can drop the silliness and discuss the nature of the Biblical God.
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