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Do you believe in God?
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Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
I'm not going in circles with you over this anymore dude. You're debating this with a closed mind. The only way you're going to understand my point is if you get over this thought process of trying to apply human logic to God. Believe it or not, yes, compared to a being capable of creating the entire universe and existing everywhere at once, our thoughts and emotions are probably about as sophisticated as the bacterium.
Post by
MasterOfDisguise
Thread derailment snipped. Please take this as a friendly reminder to keep it on-topic and friendly. This is not a warning addressed to anyone in particular.
Tush, I will be sending an email to you within the next fifteen minutes; please read it as soon as possible.(##RESPBREAK##)524##DELIM##MasterOfDisguise##DELIM##
Post by
Nathanyal
A person is a sapient being (which does not only include humans). God is a sapient being. God killing humans for unjustifiable reasons=murder.
God is more of an omnipotent being, one that is all knowing.
He knew what would happen if he killed those people, that's why he did it.
But:
I'm not going in circles with you over this anymore dude. You're debating this with a closed mind. The only way you're going to understand my point is if you get over this thought process of trying to apply human logic to God. Believe it or not, yes, compared to a being capable of creating the entire universe and existing everywhere at once, our thoughts and emotions are probably about as sophisticated as the bacterium.
I agree with this. You do it on other things too, and that makes it hard to debate with someone. If they can't see where you're coming from, you might as well be talking to a brick wall.
As for the original question, I'm on the fence about it.
Post by
Gone
I think that's one of the hardest things for people to swallow about religion. We are raised today to be self confident and independent and to think that we have certain innate rights to freedom and life. Where as religion teaches us we are basically sheep. We're scared, helpless, humble creatures without God, and the only rights we have are the ones that he allows us to have. It's a very conflicting message compared to the one we are raised with these days.
Post by
Skreeran
In regards to God being above humans, perhaps I am being stubborn, but I just can't get behind a god who kills people for what seems like trivial reasons. I mean, there's the main thing that I don't actually believe in that god, and I think ancient humans were using "him" as a justification for horrible things that happened to other human beings, but even if God were to be proved true, I just couldn't get behind him the way he's depicted in the Bible.
Post by
Adamsm
Where as religion teaches us we are basically sheep.Well not all religions; but yeah, can see the Shepard angle to the Christian/Catholic God.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
If I may offer up an analogy for that, just to demonstrate a point (Disclaimer: Any resemblance to actual events, religions, locales or persons, living or dead, is entirely coincidental.)
As a society we now are generally pretty comfortable with sexual equality (with a few bumps in the road but for the purposes of my example). If a religion were to teach that women should be subservient to men then would this not be grounds for disbelief due to distaste in what belief would mean? For a woman, accepting belief in that faith would mean accepting your inferiority to men.
I suppose what I'm getting at is that if there is a god and if man's (the collective "man" not the gender) relationship with that god were analogous to a bacteria's relationship to man, then that wouldn't be something I'd be at all happy with.
edit: lots of posts since I started typing that. That was in response to Ryjacork.
edit edit: and others have already made the same point in a rather more concise way.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Squishalot
In regards to God being above humans, perhaps I am being stubborn, but I just can't get behind a god who kills people for what seems like trivial reasons. I mean, there's the main thing that I don't actually believe in that god, and I think ancient humans were using "him" as a justification for horrible things that happened to other human beings, but even if God were to be proved true, I just couldn't get behind him the way he's depicted in the Bible.
If I can suggest an analogy here, it would be like a sportsperson who is incredibly friendly and loyal to his team mates, but absolutely ruthless and unstoppable on the field. If you're lined up against him, you've got absolutely no chance, and he'll tear through your line with no mercy. But if you're on his side, all you need to do is just take the field and he pretty much carries you to victory.
If such a guy existed, would you ever want to be on the other team?
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
I think that's one of the hardest things for people to swallow about religion. We are raised today to be self confident and independent and to think that we have certain innate rights to freedom and life. Where as religion teaches us we are basically sheep. We're scared, helpless, humble creatures without God, and the only rights we have are the ones that he allows us to have. It's a very conflicting message compared to the one we are raised with these days.
As an Atheist, the two are not actually completely detached from one another. Look at Paradise Lost. That poem, which is really just a Christian rewriting of Genesis, went on to define and influence basically every ideal we have of liberty and independence. It's really all in how you interpret the bible: I personally think that the bible does not promote these values, but can easily see how they could be attributed to it.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
Where as religion teaches us we are basically sheep. We're scared, helpless, humble creatures without God, and the only rights we have are the ones that he allows us to have.
Never knew/read this before.. why are you comfortable with a religion that teaches you this? I understand faith doesn't let you pick and choose but.. I don't even know what I'm asking it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
It doesn't seem to go hand in hand with what I've always gotten from what mytie says, that god is basically love and all that is good.
I didn't mean it to sound so negative. I'll try and explain better tomorrow, atm I'm heading to bed.
Post by
Skreeran
In regards to God being above humans, perhaps I am being stubborn, but I just can't get behind a god who kills people for what seems like trivial reasons. I mean, there's the main thing that I don't actually believe in that god, and I think ancient humans were using "him" as a justification for horrible things that happened to other human beings, but even if God were to be proved true, I just couldn't get behind him the way he's depicted in the Bible.
If I can suggest an analogy here, it would be like a sportsperson who is incredibly friendly and loyal to his team mates, but absolutely ruthless and unstoppable on the field. If you're lined up against him, you've got absolutely no chance, and he'll tear through your line with no mercy. But if you're on his side, all you need to do is just take the field and he pretty much carries you to victory.
If such a guy existed, would you ever want to be on the other team?If he killed the kids of those men on the other team, I wouldn't support him, no matter how much stronger he was than me.
Post by
Squishalot
In regards to God being above humans, perhaps I am being stubborn, but I just can't get behind a god who kills people for what seems like trivial reasons. I mean, there's the main thing that I don't actually believe in that god, and I think ancient humans were using "him" as a justification for horrible things that happened to other human beings, but even if God were to be proved true, I just couldn't get behind him the way he's depicted in the Bible.
If I can suggest an analogy here, it would be like a sportsperson who is incredibly friendly and loyal to his team mates, but absolutely ruthless and unstoppable on the field. If you're lined up against him, you've got absolutely no chance, and he'll tear through your line with no mercy. But if you're on his side, all you need to do is just take the field and he pretty much carries you to victory.
If such a guy existed, would you ever want to be on the other team?If he killed the kids of those men on the other team, I wouldn't support him, no matter how much stronger he was than me.
Even if the other team supported slavery and had chained, whipped and starved the guy's entire team? If you had to take sides, you'd take the side of the guys who started the morally dubious acts, but not the guy who escalated it?
Post by
Skreeran
Even if the other team supported slavery and had chained, whipped and starved the guy's entire team? If you had to take sides, you'd take the side of the guys who started the morally dubious acts, but not the guy who escalated it?Aaaand this is where our analogy falls apart.
The point is, perhaps it's just the "imperfect human" in me, but the god in the Bible is not one I would want to support, even if I believed he was real.
Post by
Squishalot
Aaaand this is where our analogy falls apart.
The point is, perhaps it's just the "imperfect human" in me, but the god in the Bible is not one I would want to support, even if I believed he was real.
Ehh, you started it :P
I hear what you're saying, but I think it misses the point of the message the Bible was trying to send.
Post by
asakawa
I dunno, the opinion seems to resonate with a few of us. In my case I had a Catholic upbringing so I have a decent (though far from comprehensive) understanding of Catholic doctrine and I still feel that way (the way Skreeran is describing). The Old Testament stuff - jealous, vengeful god etc. - is just not something I could support.
Post by
Squishalot
While that view is fair enough with an unknown factor of God's existence, if his existence were proven beyond a doubt and that the events of the both the Old and New Testament were true, then I think it would be a different kettle of fish. Basically, in the same way that people suggest that they would want to go back in time and talk to Einstein and tap into his brilliance, you would have the opportunity to spend an eternity with the creator of the universe. In that context, it's actually quite a proposition, all things considered, even if you disagreed with the way he acted in a couple of particular instances.
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