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Ranged Tax?
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Post by
Lordplatypus
Since theres hybrid tax for the (Inane) reason that hybrids being more useful when they are not in a dps spec, should have lower dps, why isn't there a (more reasonably thought out) idea like range tax? ranged classes dont have to aim for the back, get to hit special targets, think less about cleaves and fires. so why do they get to do the same amount of damage as melee classes?
Heres the idea
Melee Dps 1rst
Pure Ranged Dps 2nd
Hybrid Ranged Dps 3rd
And ranged would still be needed for many bosses, just gives you a reason to be melee, since most bosses have ranged-only mechanics sooner or later.
Post by
DarkFenris
Let me guess....you play melee?
Post by
Lordplatypus
And you play ranged i would assume.
However, No, I play a variety, heck my 2nd favorite class is hunter and i still call for hunter nerfs.
Post by
Lordplatypus
The thing is, range is a UTILITY ranged classes are far easier than melee ones, ranged classes have long channels where they can just watch, the ability NOT to have everything piled up around you, but rather nearby in a clump.
Oh and the 60-ish bosses that need ranged dps to down at all.
Post by
Problimatic
The thing is, range is a UTILITY ranged classes are far easier than melee ones, ranged classes have long channels where they can just watch, the ability NOT to have everything piled up around you, but rather nearby in a clump.
Oh and the 60-ish bosses that need ranged dps to down at all.
You should always bring a balanced dps makeup. Every class bring some form of utility, whether in the form of raid buffs, debuffs, or specific mehanics relevant to the boss fight (kiting adds, applying slows, being able to offtank for a few seconds such as with combat rogues getting symbiosis or warriors with their parry cooldown, etc.) To be honest melee in single target smackdowns at least in our raid seem to crush enough alread. Our monk, warrior and dk are usually on the top for fights like garajal or elegon pulls. Honestly for the most part dps in pve seems alright, with a few exceptions on each spectrum
Post by
felhunter
you mentioned there being a hybrid tax in you very first line.
yet a hybrid tax hasnt excisted anymore for atleast a couple of years (they got rid of it in wotlk).
beside that i always found that while range had it easier with less running around then melee, melee dps is pretty much designed with slightly higher dps too make up for their down time.
ofcourse we all know that while blizzard tries too balance class dps, there is always one or more that will easily outpreform the others. and we have seen this switch between range and melee classes being the OP spec in many different patches. and certain specs being really weak even though they would fall under the preferable range dps.
im saying just cause melee might feel weaker atm, doesnt mean they should flat out lower the damage of all ranged dps.
if the difference grows too big they will find out on the PTR (or live when they're really slow) and make changes too make them more equal.
Post by
Magician22773
Instead of a tax, how about some good 'ol Marxist redistribution?
Have 2 or more melee in group? Debuff them, and buff the heals. (have you ever tried to heal 3 melee and a tank, all eating a cleave, because they all wanna stand in front of the boss?)
Have 3 ranged? Debuff them, and buff the tank with no cooldown on taunts. Nothing like tanking a boss, while 3 mages unload on him before you have threat, and expect you to magically taunt the boss, and all the adds, without expecting them to reduce their DPS by even the slightest amount.
Have a hunter in the group? EVERYBODY gets a "growl" spell, since after all, its IMPOSSIBLE for a hunter to turn their pet's growl off.
Post by
Lordplatypus
yet a hybrid tax hasnt excisted anymore for atleast a couple of years (they got rid of it in wotlk).
Paladin and druid were never top dps classes, it was always mage or rogue or another pure
Or just add some mechanics which require off tanking more.
That'll fix all the new "ranged needed" dungeons
Post by
Lordplatypus
Have a hunter in the group? EVERYBODY gets a "growl" spell, since after all, its IMPOSSIBLE for a hunter to turn their pet's growl off.
Yes!(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Sas148##DELIM##This entire post was ridiculous. Do not post in all caps, do not post in all bold/underline/italics and repeating the same word 264 times is most assuredly not necessary.
Post by
felhunter
yet a hybrid tax hasnt excisted anymore for atleast a couple of years (they got rid of it in wotlk).
Paladin and druid were never top dps classes, it was always mage or rogue or another pure
im not sure on what you base this, but hybrid dps classes often found themself in the top dps classes.
while some specs have had this happen a lot less (enh shamans for example) other hybrid dps classes were often found among top dps, including ret pala's/shadowpriest/ arms/fury warriors and feral druids (and lately balance more often also)
ofcouse i will admit that pure dps classes were often found among the top dps classes, but each of them had a time that they werent that high or that 1 or even 2 specs were completely unviable for pve. cause their dps was too low compared too the preferable spec.
(like BM was considered the weakest spec for pve hunters for most wotlk and cata, or frost for mages during the same time period *this is seen from a pve perspective*)
that doesnt mean they always have been weak or stay weak, blizzard changes stuff all the time which causes the top dps spots too rotate often and hybrid classes are as often among the high dps classes as the pure dps classes are.
Post by
Interest
yet a hybrid tax hasnt excisted anymore for atleast a couple of years (they got rid of it in wotlk).
Paladin and druid were never top dps classes, it was always mage or rogue or another pure
Or just add some mechanics which require off tanking more.
That'll fix all the new "ranged needed" dungeons
Really? That's not exactly true.
Post by
Lordplatypus
We're getting off topic, what i was saying is that since ranged DPS is nearly required for quite a few bosses due to either A, 360 cleaves, B, Mobs that have a fire aura (Gripping Hatred i'm looking at you) C, outside of melee range. it gets a bit over the top.
Compare that to the amount of off tanking (Melee's only edge) Needed.
You see the problem
Post by
Adamsm
There isn't a problem though; people have been surviving just fine with out range in the group for the Pandaria instances.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Our melee have absolutely no problem keeping up with our ranged. At the end of the day, a good DPS will just ourperform a bad DPS every time, regardless of whether they are ranged or not.
Post by
Azrile
Actually, you guys are wrong I believe. There IS a ranged tax. It is one of the reasons Blizzard and GC constantly tell people not to pay too much attention to sims or to target dummy dps analysis.. because in those situations, melee dps always look strong.
The fact is that Blizzard balances mostly around real encounters, in which case they assume melee dps has ´time off target´.. It really isn´t fair to call it a tax, but Blizzard is smart enough to realize not to use sims solely to balance things. If Blizzard balanced things around sims, then in real encounters melee would have the lowest dps because switching targets and positioning would eat away a portion of their dps.
It depends on how you look at it.. if you look at DPS as from a spreadsheet or from target dummies, then yes, ranged is taxed.
Also, as has been mentioned, there has not been a hybrid tax for many years.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Also, Lol at Sas148 for counting the exact number of times he repeated that word- haha.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Sas148##DELIM##He did it in a grid. So it wasn't too hard... # in row multiplied by the # of columns. ;)
Post by
felhunter
We're getting off topic, what i was saying is that since ranged DPS is nearly required for quite a few bosses due to either A, 360 cleaves, B, Mobs that have a fire aura (Gripping Hatred i'm looking at you) C, outside of melee range. it gets a bit over the top.
Compare that to the amount of off tanking (Melee's only edge) Needed.
You see the problem
no i dnt see the problem, i raided since wotlk (also a bit in BC, but that was just a few pug kara/ZA)
and in all those years i have just seen a few boss fights that were really bringing melee down.
most of the fights, the melee might have a harder time since they had too dodge more. but their DPS never was worse then the ranged classes. actually we often found melee classes around the top.
why? well for the reason i gave in my first post
beside that i always found that while range had it easier with less running around then melee, melee dps is pretty much designed with slightly higher dps too make up for their down time.
which azrille also mentioned
The fact is that Blizzard balances mostly around real encounters, in which case they assume melee dps has ´time off target´.. It really isn´t fair to call it a tax, but Blizzard is smart enough to realize not to use sims solely to balance things. If Blizzard balanced things around sims, then in real encounters melee would have the lowest dps because switching targets and positioning would eat away a portion of their dps.
while he thinks it might be a tax it aint, since it helps dps to be around the same numbers no matter if they're melee or ranged.
a real tax is what there was in vanilla and BC, were hybrid classes their DPS specs were designed to be 5% or more worse then pure dps classes.
Post by
phycus
I'm not sure why any serious raider or even casual raider would ever want any sort of damage nerf. I don't think it matters if I'm 1st or 8th on the dps list if the boss dies then we win...isn't that sort of the point. If there are a great number of situations where guilds are benching all their melee dps in favor of all ranged then that is something that blizzard should, and I believe would, address. Yes, in the very tip top guilds they sometimes do bizarre class stacking to manipulate a fight mechanic, but that's a super tiny percent of the playing population. Unless there is a situation where your spec or style is so far behind that they aren't close to competitive I don't feel there should be any cause for complaint. Any sort of boon or tax to make one playstyle more attractive than another is just a bad idea.
Post by
Magician22773
I don't think it matters if I'm 1st or 8th on the dps list if the boss dies then we win
If everyone had this mentality, things would be a lot smoother and fun, especially in LFR....but they don't.
I can't stand the 1 guy that seems to show up in every LFR, that is overgeared, and the FotM class / spec, and links the DPS meter after (or during) every fight, and calls for "kick everyone below X DPS"!
And worse yet, 8 out of 10 times, the group will kick a player if someone calls for it. Nevermind that we just downed the last boss.....he didn't die quick enough. Or healers actually had to work a little.
I personally agree with you....if boss' are dying, and loot is dropping, I don't care at all about DPS. As long as you are not auto-following AFK, I am fine. People need practice and they need gear.
Sadly, this opinion is not held by everyone, and it only takes a few elitist a-holes in a group to stink things up.
Post by
skumbananer
Ranged dps already get a tax, they play the game in a boring role. Thats one heck of a tax right there. Melee is just so much more fun. moving around, in and out, be on your toes, reacting fast to special attacks, etc. so much more fun than just standing there spamming arcane blasts over and over again or whatever those guys does.
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