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Whathappenedhead

Post by Hoddie

Seems you guys are opening a new "whatever-head" for every new game on the block. Just wondering where all this moving of resources around leaves Wowhead; I can't honestly remember what the last new feature was that you introduced here. While others in the community have introduced innovative tools like Mr Robot and The Undermine Journal, you guys seem to be concentrating most of your efforts on trying to mimic MMO-Champion's news feed. Wowhead used to be all about innovation - what happened?

Don't get me wrong, I still love Wowhead, but there are fewer and fewer reasons to swing by here these days. To be honest the only reason I do still come here is the stat weight system and the profiler, but the weight system's often not working and the profiler is still marked as beta so cannot be relied upon.

Edited as missed out the profiler.

Post by asakawa

You're basically saying the same thing you said almost exactly a year ago.

In that time we've done a lot but for me the most notable things are introducing user-created Guides and ramping up the amazing content that Ashelia and Perculia put together (with help from a really talented team) - this is content that isn't being made any where else on the internet.

Fair enough if those aren't things you're fond of but do you have any suggestions for features you'd like to see developed?

Post by FatalHeaven

Seems you guys are opening a new "whatever-head" for every new game on the block.

Keep in mind "Wowhead" is one branch of many that are part of the ZAM network. It never will be just about Wowhead. As more games are developed it only makes sense more site databases will be created. And as ZAM is a network it also makes sense they would want to be as diverse as possible. I would also think, though I will admit I am not positive, that there are separate folks working on these different sites. I don't think Wowhead or any site is being "forgotten" just because ZAM adds another site to their network. And if they feel more employees and/or volunteers are needed for Wowhead or any other site in the network, a posting will be made for such.

Post by hatman555

Seems you guys are opening a new "whatever-head" for every new game on the block.
As it's been said by others, it's not Wowhead that opens a new site for every new game on the block. It's ZAM the company that owns Wowhead. Most of the sites are run by different teams of people, and only have some over lap when it comes to the upper management of things. At those higher levels its people that you have never seen posting or working directly with users here on Wowhead.

While others in the community have introduced innovative tools like Mr Robot and The Undermine Journal, you guys seem to be concentrating most of your efforts on trying to mimic MMO-Champion's news feed. Wowhead used to be all about innovation - what happened?

Wowhead is constantly changing to make it self better. Lots of these changes take place in the community.

User submitted guides.
Marking comments as out of date

The site has gotten more features as well.

MoP talents and talent calculator. Was the first site to have it functional for Monks
Transmogrification sets. Over 1200 sets of matching gear.

Even old sections of the site that have been around for a while are getting tweaks and changes.

The new Model Viewer. Flash 11, with animations, and better viewing controls.

Don't get me wrong, I still love Wowhead, but there are fewer and fewer reasons to swing by here these days.
Even if you don't use any of these features, Wowhead has the most comprehensive and extensive Item/quest/spell/drop/and everything else WoW related database. It doesn't get any better than that.

Cheers,
Hat(##RESPBREAK##)136##DELIM##hatman555##DELIM##

Post by asakawa

Oh wow yeah, how could I not mention transmog-sets and the new ModelViewer!

And you're right Hat, that the MoP coverage is easy to dismiss as just the normal running of the site but I think the quality and speed of that coverage really stands out.

Post by Hoddie

Asakawa you're right I pretty much said exactly the same thing a year ago. At the time I was worried that you were trying to become another MMO-C at the expense of innovation, and as far as I can tell that has panned out.

Just to comment on the things you've listed above. User-submitted guides are great though the end result is really just a moving of information from comments into a different section of the site. It was implemented pretty well but there's very little that wasn't already available on Wowhead or Wowwiki. The MoP talent calculator is nice to have but I doubt many people will be using it once the new, simplified talent system goes live. It's basically just a curiosity because MoP is in Beta. It's also just an extension of something you already had. Expected? Sure. Innovative? Hardly. The transmogrification sets feature was the only thing that really sprang to mind from the last 12 months.

I think it's clear just from a quick look at the other sites that a few people have moved full time away from Wowhead. I fully appreciate that Zam is a commercial entity that is simply trying to ensure they're in on the ground floor for the 'next big thing' - but there's a real risk of Wowhead losing its core audience as people go elsewhere for tools that could and should have been part of this great site. The database has always been and probably will always be the main reason people come here, though as Blizzard makes continual improvements (opinion?) to the way quest information is given in-game, fewer people are going to need this particular resource.

It's obvious that a lot of hard work goes into making Wowhead what it is and I think you guys deserve massive praise for the way you've supported the WoW community over the years. You've always set yourselves the very highest standards. But trying to be an MMO-C clone is not the way to go.

Post by asakawa

I don't think the comments about MMO-C have much merit. News is news; presenting it wasn't an innovation for MMO-C so also presenting it here is hardly copying/cloning, just trying to add value for the users of our site.
But, fair enough, you don't like WowheadNews, that's cool. There's some aspects of it that we'll be looking at very soon so I would ask that you give it another chance when the changes go through and maybe we can win you over.

So, "innovation" is an easy thing to demand but necessity is the mother of invention and it's all very well coming up with a wacky new idea that's never been done before but if it's not something people need it'll never get used.
So, what do you feel you need right now that isn't being catered for? Do you have any ideas beyond reiterating your MMO-C criticism of last year?

Post by Hoddie

You think my MMO-C criticism is a cheap shot, fair enough perhaps it is, but does that make it any less valid? What value is being added by repeating something that is offered elsewhere?

It's difficult to offer ideas, innovation was always Wowhead's strong point. But how about dynamic profession guides that offer the best/cheapest way to power-level professions based on the average market prices of any given realm's auction house? User enters their realm, character and desired profession, and whether or not they're willing to travel to buy recipes, and Wowhead conjours up a step-by-step guide based on what's commonly available on that character's auction house, and taking into account any recipes available by virtue of that character's faction reputations. Several options could be offered for each level of the profession.

What about a dynamic quest levelling map? Using Wowhead's database client info to offer users the quickest way to travel through zones to maximise levelling speed? This might take into account user preferences such as which continent they prefer, selected zones to avoid, reputations to prioritise along the way, what heirloom gear they have available, whether to include dailies, etc. It could take into account when to call and pick up nearby flight paths (for those where you still have to do this), where to set Hearthstones, when to return to trainers, etc. Users could follow the map for a few hours and come back and refresh the map if they veered off course or otherwise progressed ahead of the map in some way (by picking up XP from gathering professions or archaeology or whatever). You could add toggle options for nearby curiosities such as rare spawn points, vendors with limited quantity items, lore spots, etc.

Just a couple of things off the top of my head, not exactly something I've necessarily thought was missing, but which I would probably make some use of.

Post by asakawa

I'm not saying it was a cheap shot, just that I don't think it's necessarily a valid criticism and someone else doing something isn't necessarily a reason not to do it yourself though it would be something you'd have to take into account. Burger King still exists even though there's a McDonalds and so on.

Thanks for the suggestions.

The first one depends a lot on realm-specific AH data so before Wowhead could seriously look at ways to use that data they would have to develop the actual gathering of the information but perhaps that would be a direction the site could move into next.
The second isn't necessarily dynamic so isn't that being done in-game by addons? The in-game solutions are really strong so I think the only way a Wowhead tool could compete would be to also create a greater presence in-game too with more addons. That feels like branching out too far to me but perhaps the admins would like to go in that direction.

You'll notice that there's already people doing both those things to some degree so, as I say, that isn't necessarily a reason not to do them but it means that you've got to take that into consideration before deciding to spend man-hours on developing a Wowhead spin on the idea.

Post by Ashelia

I think you're assuming a lot...

News was always a huge part of Wowhead and it's something content does essentially on their free time. It involves no developer time, since devs always datamine to keep Wowhead up to date. We're definitely not trying to copy MMO-C because we don't post private server videos and I don't think MMO-C ever posts detailed guides like we do; two different types of posts. That's something exclusive to Wowhead and it has been for years.

Secondly, I'm gonna assume D3DB is what sparked this. Not a single person from Wowhead works on D3DB. We bought them--we give them a server to live on and talk to them about things, including datamining, but it doesn't mean our team jumped ship. On Tera Tome/Torhead, Fewyn left (but he was replaced by Perculia mostly) and Poetic Dragon left (but was replaced by Aryu). There's simply not a mass exodus or us opening other sites at the expense of Wowhead at all :(

As for innovation, I'm pretty sure you guys will love the MoP tools we're implementing. But there have been tons of new features. I mean, we were the first site to have a MoP calculator, beating even Blizzard. Transmog sets were a huge undertaking. Guides count.

Post by Hoddie

Doesn't Blizzard make the AH data available for developers now? The second one would be dynamic in that it would take into account API data, Wowhead client data (drop rates, locations, etc), and options selected by the user. Add in Wowhead tooltips and links and this would be the best levelling map out there. Dynamic also in the sense that it reacts to the character's current situation. The map could start from the character's current location, take into account what reputations they have, the reputations they want, etc. I've never used any in-game addon for levelling purposes but I suspect those who produce them don't have the resources that Wowhead does, and by resources I mean the size of the community, the amount of data collected and the speed at which that data is collected at the start of every patch and expansion.

I'd love to see Wowhead find some innovative uses for the data it has collected. The new API tool from Blizzard, coupled with your own collected data, should allow for some amazing things. You earned your position at the top but all the cool new things are appearing elsewhere.

I like the Burger King and McDonalds analogy. It's not perfect but I guess it could be applied.

Post by Hoddie

Post by Ashelia

Wowhead always had news? Are you sure? Didn't the blog come during Wrath? If memory serves, when the blog first started it was much more along the lines of WoW Insider than MMO-C, it had interviews, guides, opinion and other unique content. We still have the guides but the vast majority of posts are cross-site promotions and virtual carbon copies of MMO-C posts.

Its news came in WotLK, yes, but it has always been the news it currently has. We have always done patch updates and we have always done guides. The majority of posts ARE guides, you are seeing a lot of patch update posts which Wowhead has always done because it's a beta which means there is a patch every week--same with blue posts, they speak up a lot when there's a huge beta going on, hence more news coverage than usual :)

If anything, I would say in the past year Wowhead's news coverage has gotten much more useful and current--not because of a change of focus, but just because we have people on staff who work different hours. We're not only first to a lot of posts, but we also explain things a lot with our guides or breakdowns :)

I'm just not seeing how you can argue that Wowhead is copying anyone when time and time again we have useful, unique posts like this one or this one.

It's frustrating because you seem to have made your mind up, but not based on anything tangible I can see :((##RESPBREAK##)2##DELIM##Ashelia##DELIM##

Whathappenedhead

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