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Post by karatechop

Hey there, if anyone needs a little PvE help with your hunter, post here

I can help with things like: stat orders, talent specs, pet spec / types, rotations, soloing, and anything else i've forgotten here.

i or some other brainiac hunter will try and reply within a few days :D

Post by 773453

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by TheRazorsEdge

Post by karatechop

I've got one: How much better is Survival (Damage-wise) over Beast Mastery or Marksman? Heads and shoulders above it? Or just slightly above them to the point where it wouldn't really matter.

The difference is gear- and fight-dependent.

The last time I used it, my MM spec was about 2-3K behind SV on Morchok and Ultraxion. Those are the best benchmark fights, as they have the fewest disruptive gimmicks on all difficulties.

In a single-target fight with a lot of haste, MM can beat SV. Once you start considering AoE, movement, target switching, and Dragon Soul gear you will see SV start to pull ahead.

BM is roughly equal to MM overall. It's strong on some fights where its cooldowns line up with burst phases (Hagara, Zonozz), but it's weak on fights with substantial target switching or AoE (Blackhorn, Madness).

As always, BM is gimped on encounters where the pet has trouble pathing, attacking, or using KC; Blackhorn and Madness were notorious for this. Blizzard may have fixed the issue, but I don't raid as BM so I have not paid much attention to it.

most of what this guy / girl said is right, i'll provide some numbers though, to assist.

ALL THE FOLLOWING ARE WITHOUT BUFFS.

"without pets"
BM: 13k
MM:20.2k
SV:23.2k

"with a wolf"
BM: 25.2k
MM: 25k
SV: 28k

that's just from simming my toon, and also practice today in DS (not BM)

If pushing for HC modes, or are reeeeeaaaally close to a kill and hit Beserk, and you're playing MM / BM it would be a good choice to go SV.

these numbers are from a 392ilvl hunter here

Post by Nooska

Post by karatechop

Post by Nooska

Post by karatechop

Since you should sim with all raid buffs, any ferocity pet (since no pet should be bringing any buffs that are needed).
A BM should typically run witha spirit beast in any situation where there isn't e buff needed, as the extra healing is always helpful.

ty :D

ok...back to the numbers, all the following are 410ilvl fully buffed except for dark intent.

BM w/corehound: 46,175DPS

MM w/wolf: 42,357DPS

SV w/wolf: 47,988DPS

meaning SV is almost 2k ahead of BM, and 6k ahead of MM.

Post by TheRazorsEdge

Post by Nooska

^^ numbers from ilvl 392 are rather meaningless though - you need to base it on a full tier worth of gear, so either ilvl 397 or 410 currently. Also you can't just sim on different specs nor arbitrarily choose a pet - to get an answer you need to sim with full raid buffs and full reforging to the specs priority.

The arrangement is quite consistent across gear spreads.

My raid gear is at 405, and SV is still ahead*---assuming proper specs and reforging for each profile. Surprisingly, BM is quite competitive overall in spite of its rather weak start in this expansion.

All three specs are much closer than they were at the end of WotLK, where MM was the clear winner pre-4.0 and SV was the clear winner after 4.0 dropped. The improved balancing has given me some encouragement regarding talents, DPS, and PvP in MoP.

Yes, but when you have an intermediate gear level (between the ilvls available) it means that several pieces are lower ilvl and several are higher, and how results come out vary according to what pieces are 397 and what pieces are 378 (I'm assuming it's not heroic FL pieces this far into DS).

Try going to a full rier of gear and switch your items out 1 at a time to an ilvl 378 equivalent, the output fluctuates wildly depending on how heavy a piece it is budgetwise or importancewise (like the actual ranged weapon).

Regardless, the second run karatechop did here, is very useful as a snapshot, and something most people can relate to (because he chose ilvl 410, that is where most raiders are aiming to end)

Post by TheRazorsEdge

Try going to a full rier of gear and switch your items out 1 at a time to an ilvl 378 equivalent, the output fluctuates wildly depending on how heavy a piece it is budgetwise or importancewise (like the actual ranged weapon).

Regardless, the second run karatechop did here, is very useful as a snapshot, and something most people can relate to (because he chose ilvl 410, that is where most raiders are aiming to end)

I could have been clearer. Since the buff to Explosive and Lock N Load, SV is ahead at practically every gear level. I'll grant there are probably a few gear sets that could bump another spec higher, but no one is really going to encounter those.

MM with high haste can surpass SV, but the gear with comparatively higher haste and lower agility is all in Firelands. The HoT and Valor gear favors SV/BM considerably.

I disagree with simming ilvl 410 because once you're there it doesn't matter; you've effectively finished the game until MoP. I believe most players will be ilvl 400-405 going into H Spine and H Madness, so those numbers are the most meaningful for finishing up the endgame. (And not having the 416 bow for those encounters really hurts MM relative to SV/BM.)

Post by Nooska

I think we are arguing different points and are in agreement, so I'll turn my attention to the new part;

I agree that 410 gear is the endpoint (well not really because it will be a little higher due to higher ilvl stuff from DW - but I think we agree on what 410 means here) - the problem with simming an ilvl 400-405 is what gear to choose to not be 410, and depnding on the choice each spec will have a wildly varying spot - not relative to eachother, but can be either more or less favorably positioned.

With the change to LnL and the gear levels we are talking about though, I would say that the reasonable conclusion at this point is that the skill of the player at each spec is what determines which is best - the delta between SV and BM is ~3.5 - 4%, the delta between SV and MM is ~10% and the delta between BM and MM is ~8%.
SV/BM is within the margin of error and the factors of RNG. They have pretty similar cooldown and burst capabilities, BM being on demand and SV being random.
I think MM falls out a bit, and I'm having a hard time processing that there really is an 8-10% gap to SV and BM, so I'm not going to draw any conclusion from that (as I don't entirely trust the data in comparison to the other 2 specs) however I would still say that a person skilled at MM and less skilled at SV or BM will probably still output more damage than he would by respeccing at this point.

Post by TheRazorsEdge

I agree that 410 gear is the endpoint (well not really because it will be a little higher due to higher ilvl stuff from DW - but I think we agree on what 410 means here) - the problem with simming an ilvl 400-405 is what gear to choose to not be 410, and depnding on the choice each spec will have a wildly varying spot - not relative to eachother, but can be either more or less favorably positioned.

Assuming optimal reforging, the differences will largely wash out. Even if they don't, the stat weights between

With the change to LnL and the gear levels we are talking about though, I would say that the reasonable conclusion at this point is that the skill of the player at each spec is what determines which is best - the delta between SV and BM is ~3.5 - 4%, the delta between SV and MM is ~10% and the delta between BM and MM is ~8%.

I reject this argument. WoW is neither particle physics nor rocket science. A skilled player should be competent with any spec after a week or two of warmup at most. The idea that someone could be excellent at MM yet terrible at SV and BM is, quite frankly, absurd.

Perhaps the person is unwilling to practice or switch specs, but this is a matter of being lazy or stubborn.

SV/BM is within the margin of error and the factors of RNG. They have pretty similar cooldown and burst capabilities, BM being on demand and SV being random.

The margin of error shrinks with additional data points. I haven't seen a sim that puts SV below either BM or MM since this tier opened. The margin of error is practically zero.

The argument for RNG is irrelevant. RNG creates a DPS range into which an optimal rotation will fall. The bell curve that is slightly higher remains preferable.

The sole caveat: In the rare cases where consistency is more important than raw DPS, the lower-performing spec/rotation may be desirable if it is more consistent.

I think MM falls out a bit, and I'm having a hard time processing that there really is an 8-10% gap to SV and BM, so I'm not going to draw any conclusion from that (as I don't entirely trust the data in comparison to the other 2 specs) however I would still say that a person skilled at MM and less skilled at SV or BM will probably still output more damage than he would by respeccing at this point.

None of the three hunter specs have terribly complicated rotations/priorities. If someone is unfamiliar with one spec on raid night, maybe he should move to the next-best alternative for that night or that lockout. But after that, there is no reason not to master the optimal spec.

Post by Nooska

I see I missed a word in my SV/BM comparison. I meant it is within the margin of error of skill and the factors of RNG .

As for datapoints, take a look at WoL for BM, at 43k dps for ultraxion heroic that clearly beats a lot of SV hunters (while not any of the ones ranked on WOL).

In regards to rejecting the argument that skill at different specs are different, you may reject all you will, but people play different ways and when the playing style of specs differ as much as they actually do (BM <-> MM for instance) and you combine it with people having different preferences, then it actually does become rocket science (or almost) to learn some specs.
Instead of leaving it in the hypothetical, I'll make it concrete and offer myself as an example.
I learn specs and roles very fast, but for some reason I just can't "get" MM rotation - despite being able to perform competitively with as different specs and classes as spriest, retpaladin, bm and sv hunter, fury warrior and feral druid for dps, and both holy priest and holy paladin for healing over the course of the expansion.
As for rocketsciende to perfect, I'll invite you to look at hoe much math there is involved in understanding how to gear as a tank - primarily prot paladin as thats what I've been looking mostly at.
We are lucky as hunters that we have Zeherah and a very well supported dps analyzing website in femaledwarf, but using it to the full ability and understanding the results require an understanding of how things work and what they do to eachother - just using the results others find and post isn't understanding your class or performing well (even though you don't have to know and understand the actual equations, just what they do and why)

Post by TheRazorsEdge

As for datapoints, take a look at WoL for BM, at 43k dps for ultraxion heroic that clearly beats a lot of SV hunters (while not any of the ones ranked on WOL).

Without controlling for the gear equipped for parses, WoL data points are meaningless. I've been over 43k on that fight for a while, but I don't remember what my ilvl was each week to see where we would have been equal.

I believe you were looking at 10N, btw. There are actually BM parses up to 48k if you switch to 10H.

In regards to rejecting the argument that skill at different specs are different, you may reject all you will, but people play different ways and when the playing style of specs differ as much as they actually do (BM <-> MM for instance) and you combine it with people having different preferences, then it actually does become rocket science (or almost) to learn some specs.

It's a matter of handling a major nuke and several cooldowns effectively. Details vary (and require practice to optimize performance), but a person would need some mental limitations to prevent him from mastering a 2nd or 3rd spec.

Playstyle has very little to do with it. It literally comes down to pressing the right buttons at the right time. I could possibly accept the "playstyle" argument for boomkin vs feral (or enhance vs ele), but in the wide range of styles all hunter specs play very similarly in PvE.

Instead of leaving it in the hypothetical, I'll make it concrete and offer myself as an example. I learn specs and roles very fast, but for some reason I just can't "get" MM rotation

MM is actually the hardest spec to play optimally. It requires more attention to the environment, pre-planning of movement, adaptation to procs, and fluid recovery from deviations than SV/BM. I would completely agree that MM requires the most skill. I was honestly a bit relieved when SV surpassed it simply because it makes raiding new content much easier.

In addition MM has several distinct ranges where the priorities change---including some which depend on talent selection---and the penalty for suboptimal play is harsh. SV and BM are both simpler and more forgiving of errors.

So I disagree on "playstyle" being relevant, but I can understand claims of difficulty. Boomkin, feral, and assassination are the only specs that offer comparable challenges.

As for rocketsciende to perfect, I'll invite you to look at hoe much math there is involved in understanding how to gear as a tank - primarily prot paladin as thats what I've been looking mostly at.

Optimizing tanks involve stat weights which change drastically due to DR, but paladins are generally not that hard. Hit the CTC, and use a reforging addon to ensure you're not wasting itemization. (I highly recommend Reforge Lite for prot pallies and warriors.)

To some extent you can trade off a chunk of avoidance for health by switching gems and trinkets, but this will depend on the fight and your healers. (Reforge Lite will let you save multiple reforging profiles if you have more than one gear set, e.g., health set, avoidance set, magic damage set, etc.)

We are lucky as hunters that we have Zeherah and a very well supported dps analyzing website in femaledwarf, but using it to the full ability and understanding the results require an understanding of how things work and what they do to eachother - just using the results others find and post isn't understanding your class or performing well (even though you don't have to know and understand the actual equations, just what they do and why)

This I can agree with. The theory is one thing, but there needs to be a sanity check. I guarantee a straight by-the-book priority player will not be using his cooldowns at the optimal time.

And, of course, no fights ever play out according to the simulation anyway. Alas, there are these unfortunate things called mechanics that need to be dealt with.

Understanding how a fight's mechanics will affect different specs is really only possible with the kind of understanding you describe.

Post by Nooska

I think you misunderstood my intention with prot paladins.
I dont' need addons - I've switched to using http://unyieldingvalor.com/calcCTC.php instead of hand calculating - my point wasn't how hard it is to utilize, but how hard it is to figure out. Block capping adds a whole new level of math to ensure that you don't waste upgrades, its a "special case" but its still there :)

Post by TheRazorsEdge

Block capping is easier to deal with than the mess in WotLK. Everything used to have different DR, especially Defense since it affected all forms of avoidance... what a pain.

Now, more avoidance stats = always an upgrade (assuming the player reforges optimally)

Reforging goes a long way toward assuring that a piece of gear with a higher ilvl is an upgrade all the time. It doesn't quite get us there 100% of the time, but it's much closer.

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