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Racism
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Post by
MyTie
In the United States, few issues are as polarizing as racism. Most people agree that racism is a negative phenomena, but not everyone agree on the occurrence and scope of what constitutes racism. This is a thread to discuss events that could be construed as racism, and discussion of events that are construed as racist, without being actually racist.
To start the discussion, I will bring up the events of a Florida city that has been in the media the last few weeks:
Martin, 17 years old, 6ft 3inches, black, was shot to death by George Zimmerman, hispanic/white. Martin was on his way home from going to buy a bag of skittles. Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch leader, called 911 to report the suspicious activity of Martin, that he was walking slowly in the rain, stopping to look at houses. The area had recently been plagued by a string of burglaries, and Martin met the description of at least one suspect. This isn't to say that Martin is guilty of the crimes, but that could have been a factor in the attention brought by the neighborhood watch. Zimmerman followed Martin, and called 911 to report it. 911 told him not to confront Martin. Zimmerman returned to his car, and was punched in the face. This was witnessed by an onlooker. Zimmerman suffered a broken nose, according to his attorney and the police department. Martin then held Zimmerman down, punching him. This was also witnessed. Zimmerman had grass stains on the back of his shirt. Martin then slammed Zimmerman's head into the pavement. Zimmerman suffered abrasion to the back of his head, according to the police department and Zimmerman's attorney. Zimmerman then called out to an onlooker for "help", and the onlooker told them to stop fighting and that he was calling 911, shutting himself in his house. At least 1 911 call records the sound of agonizing yelling, reported by a witness to have come from Zimmerman as he was being physically assailed. No one but Zimmerman and Martin witnessed the gunshot that killed Martin. Martin was shot at close range in the front in the chest. When police arrived, Martin was dead.
Initial media reports that Zimmerman shot 17 year old unarmed Martin when Martin was only holding a bag of skittles. Media reports include a young photo of Martin approximately 9 years old. At that point, there was little police reports or accompanying information as the investigation was, and still is ongoing.
REGARDLESS of whether Zimmerman did murder or self defense, there is no conclusive evidence present that either is the case, and the evidence I am aware of seems to indicate that this is a case of self defense. Without knowing those facts, and without allowing an investigation first before conclusions, politicians and media pundits have begun to use this as an example of "racism". There was a point on one 911 call where Zimmerman says something ununderstandable that has been claimed by some to be "coon", although that is not understandable. Zimmerman has been accused of racial profiling, and the police department has been accused of racism for not arresting Zimmerman and charging him with race related murder. All of this, without a shred of hard evidence that there is
ANYTHING
racist about this tragic event.
Here is the
wiki of the case
, but it seems to be leaving out a lot of details that have come out in the last few days.
What happened was, before a lot of details emerged, it became a "political football". The city council voted no confidence in the police chief for not arresting Zimmerman. President Obama commented on his outrage and how his own son would have looked like Trayvon. Al Sharpton says "enough is enough". It has become a race issue. Zimmerman is Hispanic/White and Martin was black. I detest when politicians and vultures like Al Sharpton use this crap for attention.
Here are some quotes:
Zimmerman's attorney:
George Zimmerman suffered a broken nose, an injury, a gash to the back of his head. There were grass stains on the back of his shirt. Again, he claims that Trayvon Martin struck him and he went down and he was acting in self-defense.
Eyewitness "John":The guy on the bottom who I believe had a red sweater on was yelling to me help, help. I told him to stop and I was calling 911. And then when I got upstairs and looked down, the person that was on top beating up the other guy was the one laying in the grass. And I believe he was dead at that point.Zimmerman wore a red sweater.
Muhammad of the Black Panther Party:By next week, we are looking forward to getting $1 million for the capture of George Zimmerman. We're going to force our government to do their job properly and if they don't, we will.
I think all of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen... If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon.
Doug Bandlow of Forbes:However, there is no question that Trayvon Martin would still be alive
if he was white
.
Media Matters accuses Drudge
of racism for using a photo of Martin they didn't believe was him, because it wasn't the innocent looking 9 year old photo everyone else was using:Racist demagogue Drudge continues to run photo of some kid, not Trayvon for incitement purposes. Activist Kevin Powell ties this to the entire "right wing":One of them, as I said in my speech, is that we have to see the connection between Trayvon Martin and the right-wing attack on the bodies of women and their anti-immigrant policies. It's all connected, this lack of respect for peoples' lives.
Actress Angela Bassett declares this an execution for being black:Trayvon Martin adds another name to the terrible legacy of young black men like...Emmett Till and countless others who were judged, sentenced and executed for the crime of being young and blackAgain, with Bassett:An innocent young man walking home from getting a snack, and by virtue of race, accused of being a trespasser and predator just steps away from his father’s home. Yet all signs suggest that he was the one being hunted and then killed
I think the media does a disservice to Black Americans (not just the ones that have also lived in Africa). By disingenuously painting a group of people as victims, like the boy who cried wolf, I begin to question each instance of actual racism.
Post by
Adamsm
And his mother hates that people are coming forward like this, trying to capitalize off his death.
That being said...Zimmerman should still be charged for manslaughter: from what the 911 calls are saying, he was following Martin around simply because he was black and wearing a hoodie in a place 'he shouldn't have been'. The fact that he's hiding behind an obscure law and has yet to even admit what he did was wrong, shows that he's full of something.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
And his mother hates that people are coming forward like this, trying to capitalize off his death.
That being said...Zimmerman should still be charged for manslaughter: from what the 911 calls are saying, he was following Martin around simply because he was black and wearing a hoodie in a place 'he shouldn't have been'. The fact that he's hiding behind an obscure law and has yet to even admit what he did was wrong, shows that he's full of something.
First of all, he stopped following Martin when 911 told him not to anymore. He returned to his car. Martin then followed him and began the altercation.
Second of all, the fact that Martin was "black and wearing a hoodie" was never part of Zimmerman's reasoning as being wrong, but that his actions were suspicious, and the fact that he matches the description of recent burglary suspects.
Third of all, he isn't hiding behind some obscure law. His lawyer isn't using the "stand your ground" law. His lawyer is using straight up self defense. Only the media is mentioning the "stand your ground" law, in an attempt to tie this to the NRA, quite incorrectly.
It's obvious to me that you have NOT read the facts of this case, Adamsm.It is kinda ironic that being white heterosexual male turns you into most oppressed group at the moment....
On-topic: the fact that first thing we look on in cases like that is race/sex/sexual orientation is kinda racist/sexist/(don't know this one) homophobic. True equality will be achieved when all the factors will be ignored. Alas, there is always someone who will claim that rights of his/her minority is oppressed, because people just like to complain...
This has nothing to do with sexuality. If you want to discuss that, there are threads for it. We have enough controversy here to contain as it is.
And I disagree with your view of race. True equality will not be achieved when all factors are ignored, but when all factors are taken into account.
Post by
Squishalot
Martin
, a neighborhood watch leader, called 911 to report the suspicious activity of Martin, that he was walking slowly in the rain, stopping to look at houses.
Should that be Zimmerman? The sentence makes very little sense at the moment.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Martin
, a neighborhood watch leader, called 911 to report the suspicious activity of Martin, that he was walking slowly in the rain, stopping to look at houses.
Should that be Zimmerman? The sentence makes very little sense at the moment.
You are correct. I edited the error. Thank you.
Edit: Boron, I agree with your idea that people should be judged for their actions. However, as a community, we should be sensitive to the race factors of our community. We not only have different skin tones, but different cultures that often go hand in hand with our skin tones. We should be sensitive to the good and the bad. We should not ignore it when one culture has a problem with violence, drugs, crime, education, or any of the issues that plague many of our American cultures. We need to see them, and address them, not ignore them.
Post by
Adamsm
First of all, he stopped following Martin when 911 told him not to anymore. He returned to his car. Martin then followed him and began the altercation.
Second of all, the fact that Martin was "black and wearing a hoodie" was never part of Zimmerman's reasoning as being wrong, but that his actions were suspicious, and the fact that he matches the description of recent burglary suspects.
Third of all, he isn't hiding behind some obscure law. His lawyer isn't using the "stand your ground" law. His lawyer is using straight up self defense. Only the media is mentioning the "stand your ground" law, in an attempt to tie this to the NRA, quite incorrectly.
It's obvious to me that you have NOT read the facts of this case, Adamsm.Been watching it on the news for the last few days; didn't see anywhere that Martin started the fight; I stand corrected on that front. As for the hoodie part; that's been around the news so more then likely got blown out of proportions. I've heard the 'Stand your Ground' law stated quite a few times; again, sorry.
I still think Zimmerman should be charged, but that's just me. As for the racism angle/aspect, that's a part of human nature, since people freak out over everything...but then again, considering the way people are treated all over the globe, acting like it's not part of the issues at hand is a bit of a stretch.
True equality will not be achieved when all factors are ignored, but when all factors are taken into account.And as long as human beings are human beings, that will never happen.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Been watching it on the news for the last few days; didn't see anywhere that Martin started the fight; I stand corrected on that front. As for the hoodie part; that's been around the news so more then likely got blown out of proportions. I've heard the 'Stand your Ground' law stated quite a few times; again, sorry.Your problem is you are watching biased news and taking that for your facts.I still think Zimmerman should be charged, but that's just me.Charged with what? Why? Based on what evidence?True equality will not be achieved when all factors are ignored, but when all factors are taken into account.And as long as human beings are human beings, that will never happen.Yeah, people aren't perfect.so will it be OK for me to kidnap a girl and marry her because because my culture accepts?No. I didn't mean that culture excuses problems, but that some problems correlate with certain cultures, and that shouldn't be ignored.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Pikeyboy - You suspect race, but you admit you don't know. That at least is honest.
Post by
Adamsm
Your problem is you are watching biased news and taking that for your facts.I watch the National on CBC; Canadian news station.
Charged with what? Why? Based on what evidence?Manslaughter at least; like I said farther up. He still killed someone, he still followed Martin for no real reason, so yes, he should pay for his crime.
Edit: Tell me MyTie, why shouldn't he be charged for ending the life of another human being? I could see if he actually saw Martin breaking in or attacking someone....but the kid was just walking down the street, trying to get home after getting a sugary snack.
Yeah, people aren't perfect.And? I agree that we need to change our outlooks as a race on everything...but we never will; for most of the planet, it's a lot easier to just keep acting the way we always have.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Nathanyal
Something I was thinking about is whose to say how Martin felt. At some point he must have figured out he was being followed, and like a normal human being he was spooked by this. He may have felt threatened knowing this guy was following him. He may have started attacking him thinking this guy was going to attack him first.
Now I don't know how well you credit what is said on Wiki but this was in there.
According to phone records provided by T-Mobile, Martin was speaking on a cell phone at the time of the incident. Martin's girlfriend came forward, identifying herself as the other person in that conversation; she was interviewed by an attorney, who has made a statement, and her parents have requested her anonymity. The girl said that Martin expressed concern about a strange man following him, and she advised him to run. She says she heard Martin say "What are you following me for?" followed by a man's voice responding "What are you doing here?" She said that she heard the sound of pushing and that Martin's headset suddenly went silent, leading her to believe that he had been knocked down. She attempted to call him back immediately, but was unable to reach him.
We know at one point that Zimmerman confronted Martin. There are about 3 different things being said.
1:An eyewitness to the physical altercation just prior to the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating him up, while the older man yelled for help.
2:Another witness, Mary Cutcher, believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, though she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation
Then we have what Zimmerman said:
The police told the Orlando Sentinel, that Zimmerman told them that after he followed Martin, he lost track of him and was returning to his car. Zimmerman reported Martin then confronted him and asked "Do you have a problem?". Zimmerman said he replied no, and then reached for his cell phone. Zimmerman then alleged that Martin punched him in the face, knocking him down, and then began to beat his head against the ground. Zimmerman states that he called out for help while being beat, and that he then shot Martin in self defense
From the first one we have the witness stating they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him up, but no reason was given as to why. All we know was that Zimmerman could have said something to scare him only to have Martin start attacking him for some reason.
The next one is what someone believes to have happened, but since she didn't see what happened that doesn't seem to stand well.
Finally we have Zimmerman's own words as to what happened, and again we don't know what really happened as we weren't there to hear what was said. We also can't ask Martin for his side of the story.
There seems to be a lot of missing info about what may have actually happened prior to the altercation between the two but after Zimmerman started following Martin.
Post by
gamerunknown
On another forum thread, posters differentiated between racial profiling (young, black, hoody wearing, well built) and a hate crime (kill the black kid). They pointed out it was unlikely that someone would call the police if they were intent on committing a hate crime unless they wanted to claim plausible deniability.
I think that shooting someone, even if they had severely beaten you, is not reasonable force. Certainly not an unarmed person that if they had a weapon, would have used it by then and certainly not after one had followed them, rather than if they had invaded one's own home.
And his mother hates that people are coming forward like this, trying to capitalize off his death.
Isn't his mother trying to copyright stuff associated with his death? I don't entirely blame her given that she may have been relying on his labour in the future.
Edit:
It is kinda ironic that being white heterosexual male turns you into most oppressed group at the moment....
This still isn't true by a long shot looking at average lifespan, boardroom membership, average rates of incarceration, average sentencing or average salary.
Post by
asakawa
This story is an interesting counterpoint to the UK Twitter user story also being discussed at the moment.
In that you have someone saying disgusting, very racially motivated things but not doing anything. Here you have someone certainly doing something but not saying much.
Personally I don't see much point in discussing this in terms of race though it seems that's the only light in which this is being discussed at all. I don't really see what effect motivations would have on things in this specific case and I think people are getting ahead of themselves to discuss it in terms of being an example of how US society works (though, being an outsider to that culture, what do I know?).
What I do find troubling is that this thread clearly has its own bias and agenda. It includes some questionable things as "facts" while ignoring other things and then MyTie says:
Your problem is you are watching biased news and taking that for your facts.
Is this attempting to redress the balance by presenting a
different
biased view as fact?
The problem I see is a lot of people on both sides of the political divide talking about an on-going investigation before the facts are actually decided by the courts.
I guess I'm agreeing with this quote that I found on wikipedia:
Commentator Thomas Sowell wrote, "The man who shot the black teenager in Florida may be as guilty as sin, for all I know — or he may be innocent, for all I know. We pay taxes so that there can be judges and jurors who sort out the facts. We do not need Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton or the President of the United States spouting off before the trial has even begun. Have we forgotten the media's rush to judgment in the Duke University "rape" case that blew up completely when the facts came out?"
and I see this thread as part of the problem and certainly not part of the solution.
Post by
gamerunknown
We do not need Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton or the President of the United States spouting off before the trial has even begun.
It's entirely within their right to do so though: Hitchens had a great point on CSPAN where he pointed out that the presumption of innocence was a requirement placed on courts and had nothing to do with the public's right to speculate.
I would take
Sowell
with as much a grain of salt on racial matters as Al Sharpton for precisely the opposite reason.
Post by
asakawa
I have very little knowledge of any of these people. My point is "
The man who shot the black teenager in Florida may be as guilty as sin, for all I know — or he may be innocent, for all I know. We pay taxes so that there can be judges and jurors who sort out the facts.
"
From what I'm seeing in this thread and the coverage on the internet there's lots of people trying to sell an angle as fact. Hopefully a proper investigation can turn up something more objective.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I posted a link to all of the 911 calls from the time, in the News Articles thread. The actual transcript has George Zimmerman telling the operator that the kid is running OUT of the neighborhood, and he was going to chase him so he didn't get away. Those were his words.
Also, one of the eye-witness calls has someone in a white t-shirt being on top in the brawl. I don't know if either of them were wearing a white shirt, but that's what the caller said in the transcripts. It's clear many people were confused what was going on.
911 Call Transcripts
I don't know if it was racially motivated or not- what I do think it was, was vigilante law enforcement when he didn't have probable cause. Zimmerman created the situation, and he created it knowing he had a gun. This kid, even if he took a punch at Zimmerman, was being chased at night by a stranger. I'd say that between the two, Martin had the better case for self defense. And he's the one who ended up dead.
The reason so many people are talking about this, aside from the fact that it is sad that someone died, is that there is a unique situation in Florida based on the "Stand Your Ground" rule.
In most states, if you feel that someone might be dangerous, the law is that you're not supposed to try to engage them. If someone is road-raging at you and trying to instigate a fight, you're supposed to try to drive away- not get out and beat them up. If some people you work with have a grudge against you, and you see them waiting in the parking lot, you're supposed to call the cops- not grab a baseball bat and go out yourself. There are several reasons for this- it's hard to prove after the fact that someone was a danger if you kill them, it's easy for situations to be misconstrued (like a teenager walking home who you don't recognize because he's new to the neighborhood, or people you don't like waiting for a ride, not for you, but you go out swinging anyway), etc. It's much clearer who the instigator is if you know that you have a duty not to escalate fights.
And in many instances, the average person who isn't doing anything wrong will have a much different reaction to being questioned by the cops that being chased down by an un-uniformed, un-licensed civilian with an aggressive manner. If I was walking home, and some weirdo came out yelling at me about what was I doing in HIS neighborhood, or why was I waiting to fight his daughter, or whatever thing he had gotten in his head I was up to, I'd certainly feel like I was in danger of being attacked.
Generally, this principle in only waved when someone is trying to get into, or is already in you home. People do have the right to engage people in their own homes, and not be pushed out rather than defend them. It's called castle principle, or something like that.
In Florida's case, they recently passed a law that you were allowed to meed a perceived threat with force, regardless of where you are. The intention was that people would be able to "fight back" against criminals. the reality is that it doubled the annual "justifiable homicides" when it was passed, and that the Martin case isn't the first one where this has come into question. There was a case a while back where a repo man was shot dead while repossessing a car that a man hadn't paid on in over a year, and that shooter faced no charges based on this law as well. A "perceived threat" is a very broad term, and it doesn't need to be justifiable perceived either. The law basically says that if you can prove that YOU felt threatened, regardless of whether you were or not, you have the right to after that person with force up to and including deadly force.
This case shouldn't be about racism. It should be about a really badly worded law that is letting people get away with murder.
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