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Multi Boxing in PvP.

Post by DavidIsaak

Why would anyone in their right mind pay for all those extra accounts just to multibox? All they gain is the ability to faceroll people in pvp, which is boring, at the cost of extra computers and extra money per month. What a waste.

Why would you decide for others what a good use of their time and money is? A lot of people would call the money and time you spent on your one account a waste. Do you think they should be able to tell you what you should enjoy?

Post by sky3union

Now for your first point, they may very well be a nuisance. I don't personally feel this way thou but I can't speak for others on it. The term "the ends justify the means" is a thesis often used to justify what we consider "bad" actions. But it does not inherently indicate that something is bad so I don't think it matters much here.

I don't really get how they exploit other peoples time and services, that is true for every player is it not? Although the word to be used here is utalise and not exploit. They provide their services to the group be it healing, tanking or dps'ing. For them to exploit others would mean that they aren't contributing which would classify them as afk'ers and nothing else.If the multi-boxer is skillful and no harm is really done to the group's efficiency, I would say, who cares and whatever. But if he's not, say in RDF, you are practically running a dungeon with 4 or 4.5 players' efficiency. And that is why I used the term "nuisance" or "exploiting, taking advantage of". Sure there are people who are a nuisance to the group even if he/she is not multi-boxing. But that blame falls soley towards that player for hindering the group's efficiency. Same should be applied to the multi-boxer. If by any means the multi-boxer is hindering the group's efficiency, the blame should be on them for not making the dungeon run a 5 man's efficiency.

I used the term "the end justifies the means" in exactly that meaning where I consider multi-boxing in a group play not as a bad bad thing but somewhat a bad action.
There are quite a lot of stuff, or action, that is not legally ok, but if the intentions were good, were acted in self-defence, or it works out for the best, the law will let them pass and not legally penalized the person.

Multi-boxing is considered legal by Blizzard so they will never get penalized for it, but I'm against multi-boxing in a "group play", not because of the reason stated by TheTrayvor, but because there is a chance that the group might not fulfill their goal if the multi-boxer is present. Even if the group was able to fulfull their goal but took extra time to do so, I say multi-boxer is still to blame.

And enchanters can roll on everything. Just because the wow community generally considers it to be wrong doesn't make it a rule. If they are allowed by the game to do so then they are free to do so. They are breaking the rules of society but not the rules of the game, which are what matters here.
So can everybody else bid on every item that drops even if the person has a better one or don't even really need them. I'm saying, enchanter's argument of bidding every green, blue item because they need to lvl their profession, a total bull. Everyone else has the right to bid on everything if they can, but they don't, just out of common courtesy. Enchanters who bid on everything is not showing that courtesy and can be considered selfish because he/she is ignoring other people's right to get the item.

Or, saying people who don't loot mob's corpse which results in skinners not being able to skin, selfish
Yes, it is selfish? I don't really get what point you are trying to make here, you haven't written it very clearly. They look out for themselves only and ignore the needs of others, which is what selfishness is. It's however not wrong.
Yeah, I admit that part lacks explanation. Before I explain, there was a thread who were QQing because other players are not looting the mob and the OP couldn't skin them. The OP used the term "selfish". He called other players who don't loot mobs "selfish" for not doing so. The thing is, dungeon system gives out turns, the right to loot mob for each group member. If the other players didn't loot his/her mob, that's their choice and they have every right to do so. If they loot the mob so that a skinner can skin them, they were being kind but they are not obliged to do so. Calling other player "selfish" for things that he/she is not obliged to do is nonsense.

Also, who is sabotaging? Sabotage indicates intent to do so. Which is not present here. Multiboxers are playing to win, the aren't playing to sabotage, if that were the case they would try to make their own team lose and I have not heard of such a case.

Would love love for you to clarify the last parts of your post.
I'm sure there are some multi-boxers who play to win, and I'm sure some have skills to do so. But in most case, no, multi-boxers multi-box so that they can get what they want in half the time, or 1/5 of the time. Sure they play to win because winning gives more of what they want, but that doesn't mean they have the skills to back it up. The purpose of multi-boxing in a group play is more closer to what I said above, to reap out other player's time and service for their benefit. Take RDF multi-boxing for example.

Post by slasher0161

Wait up let me try summarize the last 4 pages of rubbish I just trawled through:

Against multiboxing:

It take places other people could take causing them to lose a spot
(Invalid they still get a spot albeit takes maybe an extra minute (consider the average players /played and tell me 1min makes a difference)).
It possibly reduces group effeciency
(The whole discussion wouldn't have come up here if this were true, it started out as a pvp rant because someone got facerolled in a pug bg by some multiboxers, lord help if they face a QQ premade or any other organized group.)
Because the person controlling the characters is using smartly co-ordinated macro's to play and thats not clicking so they should be banned!

Yes the final point there is hyperbole but that is pretty well what the arguments against multiboxing boil down to.

Now for some anecdotal evidence, I have had an active WoW account now since October 2006, so you could say i've been playing for a little while. In my time playing I have clocked up a few hundred days of /played of which I would estimate there is around 15% afk time included. I would estimate I have run around 4-5000 dungeons and 2-3000 battlegrounds that were pugs (if not more but lets work on these figures). I can honestly recall encountering at most in that large span of time 16 multiboxers of which only 4 were in dungeons and the other 12 in bg's.

Now here is the exciting point, the ones in dungeons I didn't even notice until I thought "Hey competent dps that can stay out of the bad stuff... hey they all have the same name from the same realm... what do you know they are all wearing the same gear they are multiboxers. *shrug* *continue pulling*"

As for the battleground cases there was only 1 incidence where it turned the tide of the battle and interestingly enough got facerolled again several games later by the same tactic but this time they characters were independantly controlled (differing names, realms, gear, ect.). The funniest part of all this was that the tactic of using 5 unholy deathknights at a choke point was what proved fatal.
The carnage went as follows.
(Dgripx1, infestx4) -> Necrotic strike x5 -> Necrotic strike x5 -> Necrotic strike x5 -> Necrotic strike x5 -> Necrotic strike x5 ->Necrotic strike x5.
Now there is nothing that can be done against that, the damage is unhealable even as fresh 85's purely based on the mechanics of necrotic strike and as they held us at a bottle neck when they did so there was little that could be done, both instances of this were in av. However to turn around and blame the losses on multiboxers would be completely stupid, especially when we got facerolled a couple of games later by the same tactic just independently controlled characters.

I would also say if you want to see pvp griefing, que up in the 80-84 bracket in wsg and get put on a team of all 80-82 character when your opposition has 2 level 84's and a healer. Its physically impossible to win.
(I would know I was on the team with the 84's and held an entire team at the graveyard for 22minutes with only myself a survival hunter and a priest mcing the odd stray back and healing me every 6 respawns.)
Say they could use all the tactics they wanted in the world but when your dead in 2 gcd's from respawning all the stratergy in the world isn't going to save you, that is griefing and their best bet with that bg was to /afk out. However to claim multiboxing is on that level is absolute rubbish.

TL;DR
If you want to ban multiboxers ban any form of intelligent playing also, its far more dangerous and likely to cause griefing, this is coming from someone with a fair few years of experience behind them.

Post by sky3union

Against multiboxing:

It possibly reduces group effeciency
(The whole discussion wouldn't have come up here if this were true, it started out as a pvp rant because someone got facerolled in a pug bg by some multiboxers, lord help if they face a QQ premade or any other organized group.)

Maybe you don't have your own standard of viewing things, but I do, and that was my argument against multi-boxing. And read the OP again. His group didn't get facerolled by multi-boxers, they were winning but OP got annoyed by it and left because that specific BG win was taking more time than he was expecting.

The goal of Isle of Conquest is not about defending the throne room forever and ever. If the situation calls for it, it is a one method of delaying the opposite faction from winning and buying time for your team. But in a normal circumstances if your 40 people just stay in the throne room from the start of the game, you know how that will turn out. So how efficient are those multi-boxers, eh, who can only filled out one role in the OP's situation.

Maybe you didn't reazlie it but you are actually supporing my statement by saying,
TL;DR
If you want to ban multiboxers ban any form of intelligent playing also, its far more dangerous and likely to cause griefing, this is coming from someone with a fair few years of experience behind them.Any form of intelligent playing > multi-boxers, which is saying, multi-boxers present = reduce chance to have a form of intelligent playing = reduces group efficiency.

Like I said, if each individual players, say 5 players, couldn't play intelligently, the blame goes to all those 5 players, individually. If the multi-boxer is filling that spot and he/she can't play intelligently, all those blame goes to that one person, 5 times the normal blame.

Also,
Now here is the exciting point, the ones in dungeons I didn't even notice until I thought "Hey competent dps that can stay out of the bad stuff... hey they all have the same name from the same realm... what do you know they are all wearing the same gear they are multiboxers. *shrug* *continue pulling*"that's because 5man dungeons are faceroll.

Which group do you think will run faster? A group with 1 multi-boxer using 2 accounts, or a group with 2x that person who are using each account? Well, if you didn't notice any difference, why don't that multi-boxer tank and heal at the same time? or better yet, why don't they save their time by running 5 accounts?

Post by slasher0161

Sky my point is there is that many terrible players around anyway that if someone has the intelligence to set up the required programs to multibox they will likely play better than the incompetent players that would normally fill those spots. So you also admit that 5 man dungeons are faceroll, therefore who the hell will notice the difference of a multiboxer there? If your raiding with a multiboxer then more fool you for getting into a group with them. Honestly the speed of a group is set by the tank and healer, the dps by this point of an expansion are nice but not really groundbreaking to the pace unless they are completely useless. With all that said what has been established is multiboxing is a non issue in pve, unless you wish to dispute your own claims?

The pvp issue as I said is very small and really any co-ordinated group is far more of an issue. Multiboxers can be easily handled with cc, they are often just as helpful as other pugs. So what is the real issue here, what is the one solid point to say they should be banned. Nothing a multiboxer does is effecting your game play anymore than any pug experience would.

Actually you know what, I think we should ban multiboxers! I also don't like scene kids and hipsters near malls and shopping complexes so lets arrest them too while we are at it, its effecting the experience of the place. I also think licences should be removed from anyone who does below the speed limit, doesn't know how to use indicators, can't reverse parallel park or drives a smart car, it is after all ruining the experience of driving for all people on the roads.
Would you not agree these are all fair claims, its all a minority ruining the experience of a place to some extent, not really doing anything bad but hey whats the difference?

Post by DavidIsaak

Lets address some other things shall we.

So can everybody else bid on every item that drops even if the person has a better one or don't even really need them. I'm saying, enchanter's argument of bidding every green, blue item because they need to lvl their profession, a total bull. Everyone else has the right to bid on everything if they can, but they don't, just out of common courtesy. Enchanters who bid on everything is not showing that courtesy and can be considered selfish because he/she is ignoring other people's right to get the item.

I don't know if you have run any of the new heroics but I've geared 5-6 characters there and to say people don't need on things they don't need out of common courtesy is a massive lie. I would consider it a 50-50 chance or less for people not to need on what they don't need. On numerous occasions I have seen people in all 397 or more needing on the 378 gear someone else needs. I have had hunters need on the strength weapons i desperately needed. People are just greedy and selfish all around. And I don't think you can compare it to the "selfishness" of a multiboxer because they aren't stealing from anyone. This is getting besides the point so I won't discuss it further.

I'm sure there are some multi-boxers who play to win, and I'm sure some have skills to do so. But in most case, no, multi-boxers multi-box so that they can get what they want in half the time, or 1/5 of the time. Sure they play to win because winning gives more of what they want, but that doesn't mean they have the skills to back it up. The purpose of multi-boxing in a group play is more closer to what I said above, to reap out other player's time and service for their benefit. Take RDF multi-boxing for example.

I don't understand how they would get what they want in less time because it doesn't take any less time. They (let's assume the multiboxer has 3 accounts) would need three times the drops thus taking 3 times as much time to gear. And the part where you say "Sure they play to win because winning gives more of what they want, but that doesn't mean they have the skills to back it up." is true for every player.

How are they 'reaping' out the time and effort of other players? Everybody gets what they would have gotten anyways. No one loses out on anything. People don't lose anything, they gain things. Because a multiboxer is infinitely more likley to not suck than your average player.

I don't see any argument that multiboxing is bad, i only see reasons why it is good.

Post by sky3union

Both of you guys, slasher0161, DavidIsaak, really need to read my post more carefully. I'm one of those people who try to see every aspect of the argument. Naturally I answered most of your arguments in my post.

Sky my point is there is that many terrible players around anyway that if someone has the intelligence to set up the required programs to multibox they will likely play better than the incompetent players that would normally fill those spots. Which is why I said, if the multi-boxer is skillful, good for you and the group, and thus end justifies the mean. If he's not, double, triple the nuisance, double, triple the blame.

The reason I stated multi-boxing being bad was that it reduces group efficiency. slasher0161 you practically agreed to that, I need to look over again what DavidIsaak had said. And I hope slasher0161 that I don't need to write down my above paragraph again.

So you also admit that 5 man dungeons are faceroll, therefore who the hell will notice the difference of a multiboxer there? If your raiding with a multiboxer then more fool you for getting into a group with them. Honestly the speed of a group is set by the tank and healer, the dps by this point of an expansion are nice but not really groundbreaking to the pace unless they are completely useless. With all that said what has been established is multiboxing is a non issue in pve, unless you wish to dispute your own claims?I admit 5 man dungeons are faceroll and you admitted that multi-boxing in dungeons reduces group efficiency. It doesn't matter whether it makes little difference or not, this world ain't all about black and white, but in this case it does end in black and white. Either it's, yes multi-boxing reduces group effiency, or no it doesn't. You said, yes it does, which is you admitting that multi-boxing has a more chance to be a nuisance.

Don't try to hide from the fact by saying that it makes little difference. Difference is a difference and it is present. Don't get me wrong. If I have a multi-boxer in my group I won't go berserk and try to kick the guy. I would go whatever dude, I just want this run over with, with less hassel if it can be done. My point is, was he being a nuisance? No matter how you may want to put it, the answer is yes, and that is why I'm saying multi-boxing is bad.

The pvp issue as I said is very small and really any co-ordinated group is far more of an issue. Multiboxers can be easily handled with cc, they are often just as helpful as other pugs. So what is the real issue here, what is the one solid point to say they should be banned. Nothing a multiboxer does is effecting your game play anymore than any pug experience would.Having confusion in your argument? I'll say it again, if the multi-boxer is skillful, end justifies the mean. But it doesn't change the fact that if he's not skillful, all blame goes that multi-boxer instead of each individual.

And who said anything about a ban? I'm against multi-boxing, yes, with a reason you practically admitted. But my stance about enforcing againt it, I'm indifferent about it. It's whatever for me.

Actually you know what, I think we should ban multiboxers! I also don't like scene kids and hipsters near malls and shopping complexes so lets arrest them too while we are at it, its effecting the experience of the place. I also think licences should be removed from anyone who does below the speed limit, doesn't know how to use indicators, can't reverse parallel park or drives a smart car, it is after all ruining the experience of driving for all people on the roads.
Would you not agree these are all fair claims, its all a minority ruining the experience of a place to some extent, not really doing anything bad but hey whats the difference?This is you getting personal without understanding my argument. And kids, hipsters or any of your examples, they have nothing to do with "group play". I specifically mention "group play" everytime I state my point about multi-boxing, you just don't seem to get what that implies.

Oh, make sure to note that, little difference = still difference.
You didn't really answer my question also.
Which group do you think will run faster? A group with 1 multi-boxer using 2 accounts, or a group with 2x that person who are using each account? Well, if you didn't notice any difference, why don't that multi-boxer tank and heal at the same time? or better yet, why don't they save their time by running 5 accounts?

Post by sky3union

I really don't know why you complain about group efficiency because if anything it is gonna increase.

Take these 2 recent threads:

http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=199730
http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=186774

And actually, this too: http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=17546

And you consider multiboxing to be a problem?

Not really. I've read all those thread before and they state no evidence whatsoever that multi-boxing will increase group efficiency. You can argue that some group will have dreadful group efficiency with or without multi-boxers, but that brings my point again about who's to blame. If 2 of your group members are horrible, well, 2 stupid players who can't play their class. If 1 multi-boxer is horrible playing with 2 accounts, 1 player who will get 2xblame and for being a selfish bastard who tries to get carried.

I'll say this again, because I'm sure what your next argument is gonna be.
If the multi-boxer is skillful, good for you and the group. End justifies the mean.

I think I ought to question you this also,

Which group do you think will run faster? A group with 1 multi-boxer using 2 accounts, or a group with 2x that person who are using each account? Well, if you didn't notice any difference, why don't that multi-boxer tank and heal at the same time? or better yet, why don't they save their time by running 5 accounts?
------------------------------------------------

And to say the goal of the BG is this or that is doing everyone a disservice. A battleground is a place for people to do some PvP for fun. Thou I admit plenty of people see it as an necessary chore and evil. The goal in a bg if anything is to defeat the opposition. If holding the bossroom accomplishes that then it is fair play. If it wasn't then they would not have won. And multiboxers in that case were unrelated, they would not have won in any case because it was an unexpected situation and a bg team that size is not able to adapt in the slightest.
The goal in a BG is indeed to defeat the opposition. But how do you defeat the opposition? Each BG has its own objective to win. In Isle of conquest, holding the bossroom is a method of buying time for your team, not a method of defeating the opposition. If your team is getting facerolled in Isle of Conquest and couldn't attack the enemies bossroom, what good does it do to your team to defend the bossroom?

The goal of Isle of Conquest is one thing, to kill the enemy boss. That's it. Everything else is just a method to reach that not a goal.

edit: I'll just mention this just in case. Other people being sucky shouldn't affect your standpoint about multi-boxing. Your standpoint should be consistent regardless of any circumstances. If the results are good, you can let it pass, but it still doesn't mean it's an ok ok thing to do.

Post by sky3union

Crap, I forgot you wrote 2 post.
Lets address some other things shall we.
I don't know if you have run any of the new heroics but I've geared 5-6 characters there and to say people don't need on things they don't need out of common courtesy is a massive lie. I would consider it a 50-50 chance or less for people not to need on what they don't need. On numerous occasions I have seen people in all 397 or more needing on the 378 gear someone else needs. I have had hunters need on the strength weapons i desperately needed. People are just greedy and selfish all around. And I don't think you can compare it to the "selfishness" of a multiboxer because they aren't stealing from anyone. This is getting besides the point so I won't discuss it further.That's just generalizing. So if people are just greedy and selfish all around, you are also greedy and selfish right? unless you want to say you are not one of the people.

That depends on the definition of "selfish". I define "selfish" as reaping something that you don't have a right on. As a one person, you have rights for one person, or character.

I don't understand how they would get what they want in less time because it doesn't take any less time. They (let's assume the multiboxer has 3 accounts) would need three times the drops thus taking 3 times as much time to gear.
I think math is not part of your strong subject. It takes less time for them to farm JP. They have more chance for a boss to drop the gear they want because they're on multiple characters. 5man dungeon boss drops only 1 item you know. If the boss drops an item you want for each character and it has 5 items on its loot table, your chance to get the item you want is 3/5 instead of 1/5.

And the part where you say "Sure they play to win because winning gives more of what they want, but that doesn't mean they have the skills to back it up." is true for every player.
One player, one character. For multi-boxer it's one player, multiple character.

they gain things. Because a multiboxer is infinitely more likley to not suck than your average player.
That's just generalizing also. You don't have proot of that. And even if it does, then why don't those multi-boxer run dungeons with 5 accounts? or run 10man BG with 10 accounts?

How are they 'reaping' out the time and effort of other players? Everybody gets what they would have gotten anyways. No one loses out on anything. People don't lose anything,

I don't see any argument that multiboxing is bad, i only see reasons why it is good.I really don't know how to reply on this. Only that I have to repeat what I already said. Seems like math is not part of your strong subject.

Post by slasher0161

Post by Poolie72

It possibly reduces group effeciency
(The whole discussion wouldn't have come up here if this were true, it started out as a pvp rant because someone got facerolled in a pug bg by some multiboxers, lord help if they face a QQ premade or any other organized group.)
.

This discussion was started because I think Mutli Boxing is cheating. Not because as you say ' someone got face rolled' I played a lot of pvp. Arena rbg and pre-made's. I have no issues with being beaten by a well organised group with good tactics etc. If the game was ment to be played where you control 5 chars at once then it would be made that way. example Guild Wars.

Post by sky3union

Sky with great honesty either group could run the dungeon faster there is too many factors that aren't the fact that several characters are controlled by 1 person that effect it. However if you really want to generalize it than the group with the multiboxer would be more effective as there is less elements to stuff up. Ultimately everyone is entitled to their opinion about multiboxing but to cry because it is permitted is completely pointless and stupid.
Well, if that's your thought I won't try to convince you otherwise. But you still didn't answer the latter part. Why doesn't a multi-boxer play tank and the healer at the same time? And what about 5 account multi-boxing dungeon run? all the loots are his, no fuss from other players, great choice don't you think?

And who was crying? I kept my cool from the very start of the argument. I wrote my post logically and well organized, at least I think I did. I even wrote down how I feel about enforcing against multi-boxer, indifferent. More like you were crying out because someone is talking against your precious multi-boxing?

--------------
Anyway, nobody seemed to pick up my error on my above post. There are other way to win Isle of Conquest besides killing the boss, but I was writing in a hurry so I didn't have time to correct it. The point still stands that defending the throne room is not a direct goal of winning.

Post by 747939

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 518492

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Dragalthor

I, personally, could not care less if someone wants to multi-box. They have never ruined the game for me whether I have come across them in battlegrounds or in RDF.

I remember coming across my first one back sometime in TBC and I have to admit it was a bit anoying watching them steam roll my team. However, if they want to fork out for the extra accounts, the system to run those accounts on and set thr whole thing up fair play to them, in my opinion.

Post by slasher0161

Mate they have equal rights to play, they pay the subs, the pay to have the computer(s) capable of running the set-ups. They aren't common place and yet you still complain about them being fakes and a problem. Your a real crack up, I know entire guilds that go and troll bg's by forcing turtles in AV (yes it is possible to force a turtle every game if you have only 5 people that know what they are doing), I also know other people who intentionally camp the chest at darkmoon and sell it to the highest bidder just to make people rage. Yet in your eyes these people aren't a problem because its a "real" person in direct control (not .3 seconds of computation time behind).

You really need to consider what the hell your actually arguing because trying to shove the whole fake account argument out is a load of rubbish. They pay the subs on those accounts for all intensive purposes those accounts are as real as any other person playing. The only time its an issue is when there is 0 player input behind the character and it is purely running on script.

Also for the record there are people out there who multibox full 5 man teams (there is 2 on my realm that run prot paladin, disc priest, mage, mage, warlock) the reason you don't see them is because the curve of difficulty to multibox tank / healer simultaneously is a fair chunk harder and if your doing so you may as well not have to have any random pug able to get the loot. If multiboxing is such a simple cheat go spend the extra money yourself and prove it is so overpowered, and please if you get beaten I would love to hear all about how group play is overpowered.

Post by 518492

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by sky3union

the reason you don't see them is because the curve of difficulty to multibox tank / healer simultaneously is a fair chunk harder and if your doing so you may as well not have to have any random pug able to get the loot.So much for the multi-boxer making little difference or multi-boxer being more effective because they have less elements to stuff up. Funny that you practically agreed to every argument I stated but you still argue multi-boxing is a non-issue.

Correct and logically way to voice out your opinion is, first admit that multi-boxing has some issue to be concerned, but argue that as multi-boxing isn't against the ToS, they are fine, they have every right to do so, QQ moar, and etc. But what you're doing is block out your mind from thinking multi-boxing as an issue-able thing, but keep praising about multi-boxing without any firm argument. Basically, your argument is fail as you really didn't support why it is a non-issue.

If multiboxing is such a simple cheat go spend the extra money yourself and prove it is so overpowered, and please if you get beaten I would love to hear all about how group play is overpowered.So you do multi-box, right? I care less if you are the most skillful multi-boxer in the world, L2openyourmind. Lot of people just shut their mind when there is an argument that is speaking against of what he does. What are you so afraid of? If I were the one multi-boxing, my argument will be, yeah multi-boxing can be a controversial subject but that won't stop me from multi-boxing as it isn't against Blizzard ToS.

Still either way, multi-boxing reduces group efficiency whether it be little or much. You agreed on that. Or we can parrot this thing all over again.

Post by Dragalthor

I hate to resurrect this thread but I have just been in SM-Graveyard as a Shammy healer with a multi-boxing shammy DPS team and they did not hinder my enjoyment of the run one iota.

Multi Boxing in PvP.

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