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Occupy Wall Street Protests
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Post by
Jubilee
Why does the number of states matter? If a candidate catches my fancy and that is who I want making important decisions for me, why should I be denied that because I don't know or care about how many states there are?
Post by
Heckler
^ The problem is resolved by referendum on platforms. One doesn't need to know how many states there are in the country to have an opinion on the death penalty (even an informed opinion), for example.
I think the platform problem is a symptom of the "winner-take-all" style of American elections, which logically forces a two-party structure. If some form of Instant Run-off voting was established, it would allow a lot more third-party exploration, which would help force clearly defined platforms as well consistent adherence to them.
As it stands, it's really easy to get under someone's skin with single issues (say, Pro-Life opinions), and then once you get their vote, use it to make decisions on economic policy that they may be completely ignorant of. That's what I was referring to earlier that the graph of "Toxicity to Democracy" vs. "Ignorance" is probably not an increasing linear relation -- there likely exists many levels of non-ignorance which make you
more
toxic to the democratic process rather than less.
Post by
MyTie
Why does the number of states matter? If a candidate catches my fancy and that is who I want making important decisions for me, why should I be denied that because I don't know or care about how many states there are?No, it's a great point! I see it clearly now. That person will make a great addition to the populace. In fact, I think I ran into that person at Wal Mart yesterday.
Here's a good article about what we are discussing.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
6% of tested didn't know that 4th of July was Independance day.Why? Because it's innate to natives, so natives don't bother to learn.Or it could be that they are idiots. These are the people who don't know the phone number to 911. They also have just as much of a vote as you do, that is, if they can remember to turn the door knob to get out of their house to the polling booth.
Post by
Jubilee
Good for them! I'm glad that they exercise political rights.
Post by
MyTie
Good for them! I'm glad that they exercise political rights.
I on the other hand, am not glad that they did. I would have rather they educated themselves, then exercised the rights, or stayed out of it entirely.
Nobody benefits if people go into the voter booth to vote for the sake of voting.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
gamerunknown
Oh yeah, another thing that is relevant to the thread: what do you guys think of the characterisation of the protesters as "part-time"?
I think it's an obvious attempt to try and turn popular opinion against them due to the reporters own financial allegiances. I mean, almost all protests are part time, that doesn't mean that the candidates only adhere to their moral stances for half the day. Those that do develop into permanent protests usually end up drawing legislation, like the prohibition on protesting within a mile of the Houses of Parliament (what precise threat was that based on? That an MP might see a sign and actually be motivated to debate it in the Commons?).
Post by
MyTie
The problem, still, is that you are proposing they be governed by a group of people over whom they have no control.
Do people have any more control over government if they vote without any knowledge? The people were not made powerless by having the vote removed, but by their own ignorance. In fact, ignorant voters decrease the power of the rest of us who stay informed. And it isn't as if they have no choice. Go out and read. I didn't suggest we draw a very difficult line to achieve.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
You didn't actually answer my point.
If they have no control over who is in power, why should those in power have power over them?
Does voting discriminate against people who both: do not go to the voting booth, and do not use the mail?
Post by
Jubilee
Does voting discriminate against those who choose not to vote? What kind of question is that?
Post by
MyTie
Does voting discriminate against those who choose not to vote? What kind of question is that?It points out the responsibility that is required of people for their control over government to be exercised. I think that responsibility should include knowledge.
Now, I think that we aren't getting anywhere. We disagree. You guys think that people who have NO knowledge of politics should vote. I think they shouldn't. We aren't going anywhere. Let's retire from this branch of this discussion, and move back to the main idea.
Post by
Jubilee
Does voting discriminate against those who choose not to vote? What kind of question is that?It points out the responsibility that is required of people for their control over government to be exercised. I think that responsibility should include knowledge.
Now, I think that we aren't getting anywhere. We disagree. You guys think that people who have NO knowledge of politics should vote. I think they shouldn't. We aren't going anywhere. Let's retire from this branch of this discussion, and move back to the main idea.
The act of voting isn't a responsibility, it's the mechanical action by which the right to vote is exercised. It's absurd to claim that those who do don't exercise that right are discriminated against do to their choice.
Post by
MyTie
The act of voting isn't a responsibility, it's the mechanical action by which the right to vote is exercised. It's absurd to claim that those who do don't exercise that right are discriminated against do to their choice.
People choose to remain at home. Their vote is not counted. People who choose to remain ignorant should also not have their vote counted. It is a responsibility to be educated about the ballot, just as it is a responsibility to physically vote.
Post by
Jubilee
That comparison makes no sense. People can choose to vote or not vote, that's true. That doesn't excuse or automatically make any sort of discrimination valid.
Post by
MyTie
That doesn't excuse or automatically make any sort of discrimination valid.
ok
Post by
Heckler
Another article:
Then They Fight You
, William Rivers Pitt, truth-out.org 28 October, 2011.
'Occupy Wall Street' is not about getting into a public crunch with cops over whether or not tents should be allowed in a public park. Rather than react with violence to people who are sacrificing themselves to point out what has gone so terribly wrong with the America we all love, these authorities should take a step back and encompass the awesome fact that such a movement has become so very necessary in the first place.
They should remember that violence is the last refuge of the desperate, that violence directed towards these protests will only make them stronger, and will put a big, bloody underscore beneath their efforts. Every punch thrown by a police officer, every protester clubbed or gassed or bombed or shot down with a riot-control projectile, only proves the point of that protester, and invigorates the entire movement.
Post by
MyTie
Another article:
Then They Fight You
, William Rivers Pitt, truth-out.org 28 October, 2011.
'Occupy Wall Street' is not about getting into a public crunch with cops over whether or not tents should be allowed in a public park. Rather than react with violence to people who are sacrificing themselves to point out what has gone so terribly wrong with the America we all love, these authorities should take a step back and encompass the awesome fact that such a movement has become so very necessary in the first place.
They should remember that violence is the last refuge of the desperate, that violence directed towards these protests will only make them stronger, and will put a big, bloody underscore beneath their efforts. Every punch thrown by a police officer, every protester clubbed or gassed or bombed or shot down with a riot-control projectile, only proves the point of that protester, and invigorates the entire movement.
I hate it when police bomb people. How many protesters have been shot down now? What is the total up to?
Seriously, how many needless deaths will we allow at these protests?
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