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Heroic Ragnaros Receives a Major Nerf

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Post by Magician22773

（╯°□°）╯ ︵ ┻━┻

So...even better, you were, and still are, nerd-raging over this? A little ASCII cartoon.....thats even more classic.

Re-read your post, than re-read the rest of them. You are raging harder than ANYONE else in the thread, and you continue to do so. You can call the kettle black all you want, but in the end, you are still just another pot.

Post by Damiens

Why should blizzard cater to the 1000 hard core raiders and not the 10 million others?

You hard core raiders mean nothing to them, they would go out of business if there were only you.

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Post by Sinespe

FYI, Slamdnkatron wasn't nerd-raging. His first post makes perfect sense. His second is a bit ridiculous, but then he shouldn't've responded to a trollish post.

The first reply to Slam's post is "But Heroic Raggy SHOULD BE HARD!" ... Well ... he still is, isn't he? There is a massive difference between making something challenging, and making something so hard that you have to bench most of your healers to squeeze extra DPS out of the raid group. The latter, as Blizzard has stated time and time again since Wrath, is not what they want to be doing: they want people to Bring the Player, Not the Class. Taking 3 healers for any 25-man progression fight is absolutely ridiculous.

Since the change, guildox is reporting 114 10M kills and 53 25M kills. That's still a tiny percentage of the people raiding. Just because a very very tiny perfectage of guilds managed to kill him before the nerf, that doesn't mean he was at a reasonable level of difficulty. "Reasonable" does not mean "Easy" -- "Reasonable" means "A level of difficulty that doesn't require extreme meta-gaming and drastic raid-comp reconfiguration to defeat."

The guilds who were able to defeat Ragnaros are the guilds who are able to put hundreds of hours just into raiding on a monthly basis. Paragon had over 500 wipes on Ragnaros. Assuming about 80% of those lasted longer than a few minutes (5, say), that's at least 42 hours spent on one boss. That's the equivalent of 14 raid nights of the average guild. They spent that grinding and defeating one boss.

Blizzard always tends to over-tune the End-of-Tier Heroic boss, because they don't ever release it for testing on the PTR. They then nerf it after the first few guilds have bug-tested it for them (cf live hotfixes on Sinestra and Ragnaros), and then they get a more accurate picture of how difficult the encounter actually is.

Post by OverZealous

Sorry, I totally missed your reply.

It's not a stereotype if it's true. And well, I was addressing everyone that was crying about nerfs.

Adressing those crying about these nerfs is fine, but calling them lifeless basement dwellers without real friends or boy/girlfriends isn't. And it is a stereotype, since it isn't true. There are those who fall into that category, but most high-level raiders do have both jobs and friends. A friend of mine used to raid with a really hardcore guild back in TBC, and nothing implied that he was a socially incompetent person - he had a girlfriend n' stuff.

I agree with you until a certain degree. Don't get me wrong here, I like challenging and hard. But not tedious and ridiculous. People often mistake hardship with patience, and both are completely unrelated. Something can be ridiculously easy, yet tedious at the same time. And my point is, Blizzard often makes that mistake and confuses challenging with tedium.

I will gladly agree that Blizzard often puts a "=" between tedious and difficult, but personally, I think that getting Legendaries should either be time-consuming or put on a time lock so that you can't kit your entire raiding team with legendaries. I think that is why Blizzard makes obtaining legendaries so tedious - they want to make sure that relatively few people in each guild can have access to them, or their raid bosses would be destroyed by overly geared top-guilds.

Didn't see anyone grinding BWD/BoT/Tot4W with Shadowmourne nor Mace. Blue's had better (maybe same) stats than it. people might have used them on cata, but was more for vanity than the item being best available.

Of course not; since the level cap had jumped up 5 levels they had become more or less obsolete. I am sure you did see someone with Val'Anyr in both Trial of the Crusader and Icecrown Citadel, however. Same goes for Shadowmourne - it was obsolete in Cataclysm, but it was used well during Lich King HC kills back in WotLK.

As I said, you must have not read my post. You got lost in hater mode.
I wrote...
I don't do hater mode. "Seriously, what pisses me off more than "noobs" are the die hard hardcore players that act like elitist !@#$%^&s. "You can't play wow, you are retarded." Well, you fail at real life and _________ (wait, guess you don't live your RL cos you're too focused on a virtual game, so please fill empty space with any real implications in your life.)" kind of ticked me off, though.

Meaning, you would have to down end boss of new content, after finishing all the quests from the chain leading up to the last one, and would also require you to be lucky enough to drop a legendary item from said end boss which you needed to complete the quest. (And don't take this literally, it's just an idea.)

While that idea in itself is actually pretty good (provided you can't upgrade an level 70-legendary to an 80-one etc.), I still don't quite like the idea of half a 25-man raiding team running around with current-level legendaries, even after they have killed the end boss of the final tier. For me, I think that would demote legendaries. They wouldn't be all that unique any more, which is what legendaries are supposed to be - unique.

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Post by Magician22773

So that being said, no matter how you put it, the more time a person spends on WoW, lesser time is spent on the real world = no lifer.

You post opinions like this one as if they were fact, and they are not. Spending MORE time does not equal spending ALL time. I doubt even World First type guilds spent 16 hours a day, 7 days a week at the game....and playing the game is actually their job.

I believe Ashiela's guild downed him just before the nerf, and she has explained in may threads that she indeed, does have a life.

Even at "my worst", I was playing WoW every day for 4-6 hours, but I still maintained a family, ran a business, and very much "had a life". For a lot of harcore players, WoW has just become a replacement for other "normal" relaxation activities. For me, I just replaced the time I would have normally spent watching TV after work and on weekends with WoW. Yeah, I probably let the yard go a little longer between cuttings, and some home projects got neglected, but it wasn't "consuming" like you may think.

Post by lonewarrior

The guilds who were able to defeat Ragnaros are the guilds who are able to put hundreds of hours just into raiding on a monthly basis. Paragon had over 500 wipes on Ragnaros. Assuming about 80% of those lasted longer than a few minutes (5, say), that's at least 42 hours spent on one boss. That's the equivalent of 14 raid nights of the average guild. They spent that grinding and defeating one boss.

But here's the thing with using guilds like Paragon as an example. They are one of the first one's in there.
Please correct me if I am wrong...but they have no blueprint(video/strategy) outside of a bosses ability that most of us take for granted when we visit sites like tankspot.
DBM hasn't had the timers coded yet to tell them when things are about to occur. Could you imagine how hard it must be to fight an heroic boss in this fashion. Literally learning as you go.
I'm not surprised it took so many attempts.
Could you imagine the rest of us doing any boss fights without having a DBM/tankspot video crutch.
Yeah these kinds of players are zealously dedicated...but where would the rest of us be in progression without the knowledge they provide.

Post by OverZealous

Why are you bringing up TBC? Raids were trivial back then, not even a hard mode or heroic. Those only came on v3. So giving me an example from TBC is kinda ridiculous

While there were no hard mode versions of bosses back in TBC, raids were by no means trivial. A little googling will tell you that Pre-nerf M'uru is still considered among the hardest bosses ever in World of Warcraft - and the whole Sunwell Plateau, for that matter, was a very difficult raid.
Going further back, raiding was a @#$%^ in Vanilla. Very, very few actually managed to clear for example Naxxramas back in the day. Which may very well be a product of raids being generally 40-man, but the point remains - very few actually cleared Naxx40.

So that being said, no matter how you put it, the more time a person spends on WoW, lesser time is spent on the real world = no lifer. Is it harsh, yes. Am I trying to offend anyone, no. But is it true, yes indeed. And besides, reading all these comments of "qq rag nerf FML" is no more than a display of enormous ego and lack of reality perception. Yes rag HC was nerfed, but he is still hard. Yes more guilds are killing him now, but doesn't mean anyone can just roll their faces on rag HC. It's like these people are claiming that raid is made easy somehow. Raiding is not easy. If it were easy, anyone and everyone would be running around with high end tier gear. But it does not happen, why? Guess you are able to answer that alone by now. Besides a great factor on what makes raiding hard is because it doesn't depend on an individuals skill, but a recollection of the teams efforts and capacity to get the job done.

I agree, the less time a person spends on WoW, the less time they spend on real-life activities. We have seem to have different views on the word "no-lifer", however. In my opinion, when you spend 10-12+ hours in-game every day while having no job or social life to speak of, then you are a "no-lifer". If you have a job, friends that you talk to and meet semi-reguarly and other hobbies beside WoW, then you are not a no-lifer in my book. But I suppose this is more of a question of definition than an actual discussion, so I'll drop that particular argument now.

I agree - most of the people who say "I WANTZ GAME BE HARD" because Ragnaros 25 Heroic was nerfed have most likely not even killed Raggy. If they were among those (37, was it?) guilds that did it, then they do have a say in the matter. If not, well then they are pretty ignorant and might aswell be ignored.
Actually, raiding is not only a recollection of what you listed, but it also shows everyone's (read: every individual's) ability to work together.

And about the Legendaries. If you are taking it so into context and going on it literally, how can a weapon be Legendary, if a GREEN weapon out performs it? A Legendary weapon is supposed to be of utmost power from a god or a boss. So doesn't really make sense having Legendaries that have no relevant power. Lets take a look at the mighty Hand of Sulfuras. Ragnaros is probably the most powerful being in the lore. But his mace is at a ridiculous level 60 standards. How demeaning is that? Not legendary at all. And why should it bother you having people running about on upgraded Legendaries? If the means of getting them updated are HARD and CHALLENGING, they have earned the right to wield it. Which also means that only the skilled would be able to wield it, making it more unique and a display of power. (I thought that was the idea behind Legendaries)

Because they were full expansions between. In the lore, those weapons are items of immense power and the most powerful weapons in the World (of Warcraft), but it wouldn't work in-game because it would defeat the purpose of expansions. If everyone can run around with the best weapon right from the start of the expansion, things wouldn't be hard. In fact, they would be facerolled.
While Ragnaros isn't the most powerful being in the lore by far, I definitely see your point, the Hammer is near-obsolete now - Hand of Ragnaros still was among the most powerful weapons before The Burning Crusade, though. Feel free to ask Blizzard for their motivation behind keeping Legendaries restricted to a specific level - I did a small search and was unable to find anything with satisfying answers.
I agree - if upgrading Legendaries was difficult and required a great amount of skill, things'd be fine. But you're missing my point. Even if it was difficult to upgrade a Legendary, there would eventually be full raiding teams running around with Legendaries, completely destroying any and all raid bosses.
Above all, I think, Blizzard wants their Legendaries to be rare. While I don't necessary agree that that is what a Legendary should be (I kind of agree that it should be a display of skill, but more on that below), it is what they have decided they want their Legendaries to be; and I don't think anyone, no matter how good the idea, will change that.

And why i disagree when tedium is involved in Legendary grinding? Because anyone can do tedious, as I said before, something can be very easy, yet tedious at the same time. I think Blizz is just lazy, not wasting time into thinking about elaborate ways to make the grinding actually HARD. An example: why not make the player have to deal X amount of damage on a certain encounter, without dying in order to progress into the next quest of the chain? Use the achievement mechanics to make it challenging. Since achievements are useless other than showing off your epeen, make it into something useful. I mean, really, what's so hard in getting Y number of this item (Like 1000 cinders)? Nothing. It's just time consuming in a ridiculous non hard way. If they make it challenging enough, means you will fail, and retry until you finally grasp the idea of how its done. Which is TIME CONSUMING yet CHALLENGING which makes it FUN. There's no fun in grinding 1000 cinders other than doing the same shizz week after week.

Again, I disagree.
The process of obtaining Legendaries, in its current form, combines difficult and tedious. Let's take Shadowmourne, for example.
It required you to obtain 25 Primordial Saronite and kill Rotface and Festergut - sure, nothing difficult (and hell, not very tedious either, if you had the money).
It then required you to kill ~~1000~~50 of the Lich King's minions.
Following that, it required you to kill Professor Putricide after obtaining Unholy Infusion. This is where things start to get a little bit more complicated - you need to infuse via the abomination, at the proper time, and make sure you kill him before the buff runs out.
You then proceed to Blood Queen Lana'thel, where you need to bite someone and then finish off the Blood Queen, without wiping.
When you reach Sindragosa, you need to take 4 Frost Breath-hits to obtain Frost-imbued Blade before finishing her off, within six minutes of obtaining the buff.
Then comes the tedious, when you need to obtain 50 shards.
And finally, Darion wants you to kill The Lich King.

So, looking at the above process - I would say there is both difficult and tedious. I can understand that you want Legendaries to be only difficult and the tedious part removed, but I, again, think that in its current form, it's fine.

This was a bit longer than I intended T_T

Post by lonewarrior

Why should blizzard cater to the 1000 hard core raiders and not the 10 million others?

You hard core raiders mean nothing to them, they would go out of business if there were only you.

Your are right about the 10 million...but the vast majority of that 10 million will never see heroic end game bosses unless they are vastly nerfed anyway.
Such fights are the domain of these elite guilds who compete against each other...not the rest of us.
Which is the point of contention for such players. The normal mode were meant for the masses...the heroic mode were meant for them, so why are any fights being nerfed?
The whole argument for dual raid difficulties was so that people could stop complaining about seeing raid fight contents as was the argument by many against the TBC type raid system that saw a low percentage ever seeing endgame contents. Well we casuals got what we wanted...if the maturity of mind now has the majority stomping their feet and hold their breath unless Blizz lets us have the nice shiny trinkets of heroic as well...that's just not being fair.

Post by Deepthought

Post by OverZealous

A little googling will tell you that Pre-nerf M'uru is still considered among the hardest bosses ever in World of WarcraftBy people with no perspective. It took 5 days (released: Apr. 29, killed: May 4) for M'uru to die after his release, which was about average for any non-end raid boss at the time. Nothing compared to 0-Keepers Yogg or original Four Horsemen, for instance.

I did some googling of my own, and it appears that various forums and other sites still seem to think that Pre-nerf M'uru was indeed among the toughest fights ever. It's worth noting, though, that like you say; 4H is often mentioned as well. I seem to recall Ensidia (Nihilum at the time) calling pre-nerf M'uru one of the hardest fights to date. I think that particular person said it some time near the end of WotLK, but I couldn't find it.

It was also because Naxx40 was a gigantic gear check that took a massive dump over raids that hadn't been farming AQ40 for at least 4 of the intervening 6 months between the release AQ40 and Naxx40. For instance, the tactics behind Four Horsemen were a little bit harder than usual to get used to, but by far the main stopping block to killing it was the fact that it required your tanks (of which you needed 6) to have close to available BiS gear in order to kill it. I know of several guilds that broke up because their best geared tank(s) got an offer from another guild on a different server and transferred away, and I'm certain that was not a rare occurrence.

I see - I do remember some of our tanks leaving the guild when we (or they, because I was no longer raiding) were raiding Naxx, but I thought that was kind of limited to our guild.
But yes, some bosses in Naxx40 (particularly, like you say, 4H) were ridiculously overtuned and posed as brutal gear-checks. This still happens, I think, but on a much smaller scale.

Post by Deepthought

I did some googling of my own, and it appears that various forums and other sites still seem to think that Pre-nerf M'uru was indeed among the toughest fights ever.This is because of the design (and, admittedly, overtuning of) the encounter; it majorly screwed with the make-up of your raid. It required cutting the number of healers you were using from the last boss in half, for instance, but still had massive healing requirements. Many guilds simply couldn't deal with the amount of person-swapping SWP required, which is what made it so hard for most. This is why it didn't take cutting-edge guilds much longer (if at all longer) than average to kill the new bosses; they were far more prepared with backup alts and players.