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Christianity - The Horse that Refuses to Die
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Post by
Monday
If you argue that for something to exist, it must be made, then you need a reason to excuse your deity from that same argument, or must also accept that said deity was made as well - which implies that the 'omnipotent' deity was created by an even more 'omnipotenter' deity (since coupled up with this is the argument that a complex creation requires a more complex creator), which means that the original deity wasn't really omnipotent to begin with.
If something is omnipotent than it could make something just as complex as itself, no?
So there is a god who created god?
This is what I believe, yes.
and numerous Atheists for the other side.
From what I've seen, that "evidence" (such as the "evidence" in the opening post) is countered. Empirical proof is a must, not inferences and "science!".
Post by
Skreeran
Now prove to me that Elves do not live in the forests of Germany.
Sweep the forests with infrared scanners, take satellite imagery and take video wherever you go (plus liberal use of pictures). Boom.
Sadly, God is on a slightly higher level than elves. Not comparable.They don't show up.
Oh, that's because elves have magic cloaks that render them invisible to visible and infrared light.
Post by
Pwntiff
Now prove to me that Elves do not live in the forests of Germany.
Sweep the forests with infrared scanners, take satellite imagery and take video wherever you go (plus liberal use of pictures). Boom.
Sadly, God is on a slightly higher level than elves. Not comparable.
You'd have to do it over the entire course of the forests simultaneously, and even then they may have just stepped out for a bite. Just because no one's home doesn't mean the house is vacant.
I like Skree's rebuttal more.
But he didn't say we didn't have the tools to, he said he didn't want to.
No, I didn't. I said that it would be completely pointless to attempt to prove Him to exist as it cannot be done (unless you believe the scriptures. But hey, as you don't, then there isn't any other way).
And that is the brick wall that this kind of debate inevitibly leads to.
The problem is religion isn't something that should be debated. It should be discussed, with the intent of learning more about each side, not proving one side right or wrong.
Post by
Monday
Also, the elves have superpowers that allow them to not be seen by people or any technology made by people.
Wrong argument to use with me, I'm afraid. I don't believe God as a free floating spirit, but as a physical being who operates within the bounds of the laws of the universe.
The problem is religion isn't something that should be debated. It should be discussed, with the intent of learning more about each side, not proving one side right or wrong.
Exactly, which is why I never bother to respond to these about why I believe how I do, because people will pick over every letter. I wait until something that I see as wrong comes up.
Also, it shouldn't be used to take shots at the opposing side either.
Post by
107106
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
Now prove to me that Elves do not live in the forests of Germany.
Sweep the forests with infrared scanners, take satellite imagery and take video wherever you go (plus liberal use of pictures). Boom.
Sadly, God is on a slightly higher level than elves. Not comparable.
Prove
Russel's Teapot
doesn't exist.
Also, the elves have superpowers that allow them to not be seen by people or any technology made by people.
Prove that the statue of liberty exists
Post by
Monday
Who created that God? The one before it? The first one?
There is an infinite number of Gods progressing into the past and will continue.(which is what I believe).
Nothing about the evidence St Thomas Aquinas provided, though? Interesting.
Not really that interesting, as I have yet to read anything by him and don't really have the time or inclination to. Get context before you act superior pl0x.
But you still can't prove they don't exist.
What?
Post by
107106
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Pwntiff
Also, the elves have superpowers that allow them to not be seen by people or any technology made by people.
Wrong argument to use with me, I'm afraid. I don't believe God as a free floating spirit, but as a physical being who operates within the bounds of the laws of the universe.
This is about the only thing of Mormonism I know. Everything else is gleaned from parody. Is the Mark of Cain a Mormon thing?
Post by
238331
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
I said the exact same thing that Xara said, only with less wordiness because he'd already said it.
No, you didn't. You restated your original post (which I asked for clarification on) without adding any new information. That is not a good debating tactic, especially when you try to cover it up as well.
Post by
Skreeran
Also, the elves have superpowers that allow them to not be seen by people or any technology made by people.
Wrong argument to use with me, I'm afraid. I don't believe God as a free floating spirit, but as a physical being who operates within the bounds of the laws of the universe.Okay, prove there are not elves (real, Lord of the Rings elves) on
some other
planet.
Prove that they don't talk to me through dreams.
Post by
107106
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
If he is unable to do either, then why call him 'God'?
Because the purpose of life is opposition to grow and progress, and He has given His word that he will allow free will.
He could break His word, of course, but then he wouldn't be God.
Post by
ExDementia
Also, the elves have superpowers that allow them to not be seen by people or any technology made by people.
Wrong argument to use with me, I'm afraid. I don't believe God as a free floating spirit, but as a physical being who operates
within the bounds of the laws of the universe.
That right there is hilarious. You are implying that it is possible to have all seeing, all knowing, and all creating powers... but not possible to use a cloaking device of any sort? When you say the laws of the universe, do you mean text book physics? Or the bible's laws?
Another thing that bugged me, Funden. There is no "science!". There is only science. Science is based on observable, replicable facts and results. NOT faith or gut feelings.
Post by
Gone
Who created that God? The one before it? The first one?
There is an infinite number of Gods progressing into the past and will continue.(which is what I believe).
Look at it like this, the Universe is a giant circle, inside this circle are a bunch of smaller circles and each smaller circle represents the earth, the other planets, heaven, ect. and one of them is God.
^ This is how most people look at it.
Now another way of putting it as outside the big circle representing the universe is a bigger, endless circle, this larger circle is God.
^ This is the Christian view. In that view God exists outside of the universe, he came before it and will outlast it, he Exists outside the cycle of life, death, and creation. So in that view he never had to be created.
Post by
Monday
Also, the elves have superpowers that allow them to not be seen by people or any technology made by people.
Wrong argument to use with me, I'm afraid. I don't believe God as a free floating spirit, but as a physical being who operates within the bounds of the laws of the universe.Okay, prove there are not elves (real, Lord of the Rings elves) on
some other
planet.
Prove that they don't talk to me through dreams.
It is incredibly possible that there are Lord of Rings elves on another planet, as there are something like 20,000,000,000,000 stars in the galaxy, iirc.
You're saying that we can prove things don't exist.
I'm saying you can prove to a relative point that things don't exist.
Post by
Monday
Also, the elves have superpowers that allow them to not be seen by people or any technology made by people.
Wrong argument to use with me, I'm afraid. I don't believe God as a free floating spirit, but as a physical being who operates
within the bounds of the laws of the universe.
When you say the laws of the universe, do you mean text book physics? Or the bible's laws.
Physics. Not necessarily textbook physics, as science is always growing and correcting itself.
but not possible to use a cloaking device of any sort?
...what?
Another thing that bugged me, Funden. There is no "science!". There is only science. Science is based on observable, replicable facts and results.
It bothers me as well. People like to say "but science! proves he doesn't exist."
Post by
Pwntiff
Even if "God" exists as Christians believe he does, I do not have to simply agree that he is omnipotent and omniscient and beyond my puny, human understanding. Someone quoted it earlier,
Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
If he is unable to do either, then why call him 'God'?
The Epicurean paradox. It's been around about 2,400 years.
Another version of the problem of evil is from the Bhūridatta Jātaka:
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why does he order such misfortune
And not create concord?
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why prevail deceit, lies and ignorance
And he such inequity and injustice create?
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Then an evil master is he, (O Aritta)
Knowing what's right did let wrong prevail!
Post by
Monday
Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
If he is unable to do either, then why call him 'God'?
Because the purpose of life is opposition to grow and progress, and He has given His word that he will allow free will.
He could break His word, of course, but then he wouldn't be God.
Ohai.
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