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10.2.5
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10.2.6
Christianity - The Horse that Refuses to Die
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Post by
Azazel
That's your difinition of a soul, but other people might feel different about it.
Again i say,i cannot call you a fool since i dont have the right to.But,it is what it is.The fact that you believe otherwise doesnt make it so.This could be used against my statements however >.<.
And what makes your statement any more right than mine?
It is that way because YOU believe so?
Post by
Gone
And what makes your statement any more right than mine?
It is that way because YOU believe so?
Could also be quoted to every atheist who posted here
Post by
killerdinoblood
That's your difinition of a soul, but other people might feel different about it.
Again i say,i cannot call you a fool since i dont have the right to.But,it is what it is.The fact that you believe otherwise doesnt make it so.This could be used against my statements however >.<.
And what makes your statement any more right than mine?
It is that way because YOU believe so?
I will simply defend myself by quoting what i said:
The fact that you believe otherwise doesnt make it so.This could be used against my statements however >.<.
And it was,as i expected it to be.
And what makes your statement any more right than mine?
It is that way because YOU believe so?
Could also be quoted to every atheist who posted here
Thanks for the support Ryjack.
Post by
Azazel
Saying that it's just how it is doesn't make it true.
Post by
Skreeran
That's flawed logic. Just because something hasn't been proved doesn't mean that it is then factually incorrect. If it was disproved without a doubt, or used incorrect arithmatic or something of the like, it would be factually incorrect.
As it is, this is a constantly ongoing debate with neither side having proved their point. To claim that the other side is factually incorrect, without a doubt, is incredibly arrogant.Well of course there's technically 'doubt.' Like I've said, you can't disprove God. But for all intents and purposes, teaching that there is most certainly and definitely a god is factually incorrect, as far as I am concerned, because, by all appearances, there is not.
This is the exact reason there is no proof.God tests us,he rewards those who believe in him aldo there is no proof.In the Bible ''To question'' means ''To sin''.Curiosity is really bad there,im not sure but i think curiosity or something like that is forbidden since its listed in the 7 Deadly Sins (but im not sure of this at all).The point is questioning is really bad.
Questioning is the effect of Satan.Since questioning something means showing rebellion against it.Disbelief in some form.And,due to obvious reasons,Satanic creations (a.k.a curiosity and rebellion) are forbidden by God.I am no one,i cannot judge your Atheistic believes,i do not have the right to call you a fool but...why do you question when it is bad...Thank you very much for demonstrating exactly why I feel the need to break down religion.
Teaching people not to question and to believe blindly is not only a terrible practice to teach, but it has proven time and again that it is
dangerous.
Ex-trem-istsCan you really call the extremeists when the
majority
of Muslims in the Middle East support those doctrines?
Just because they could have been done by non religious orginisations isnt relivant, every war you mentioned could have been started by non religious reasons as well.That's not really true. The Salem Witch Trials, the Inquisition, the Crusades... none of these could have happened without the superstitious thought that underlies religious beliefs. Again I'd like to refer you to Sam Harris'
The End of Faith
. If you have the time and a library that carries it, he makes the argument far better than I can.
Post by
Gone
Teaching people not to question and to believe blindly is not only a terrible practice to teach, but it has proven time and again that it is dangerous.
Unless their right?
Can you really call the extremeists when the
majority
of Muslims in the Middle East support those doctrines?
OK my man, that just about does it for me. Ive listened to you give one biggoted comment right after another, but that was the perverbial straw that broke the camels back.
Most Muslims DO NOT beleive in putting their children to death, not only is it aprehensible but its against the laws in most arab countries. Idk if your getting this ^&*! from some movie about terrorists or something, but its like you have red neck blinders on. You are taking the actions of a very fringe minority and blaming not only a religion, but a culture as a whole.
I am done responding to your comments, im tired of slamming my head into a wall here, Im done for the day.
Post by
TheMediator
I seem to see atheists being a lot more preachy of late than your average person of faith.
See, the thing is, unless an atheist is being preachy, you don't even know he's an atheist. You assume he's an "average person of faith" because he doesn't say anything otherwise and you're raised to believe that is so.
The only sensible test is looking at the preachy-ness of preachy religious folk and preachy atheists. I think you'll agree that preachy religious folk are much more preachy than preachy atheists. If you don't agree... **** you're dumb. I'm not sorry to say that either; it would be negligent of me for you to say you disagree with that statement and not tell you how dumb that makes you look.
Well I do disagree, and no im not dumb, and fyi you make yourself look pretty dumb saying that.
If I look at a random person whos not being preachy, I make no assumptions about them, I sont assume they are religious or an atheist. And yes Atheist people who are preachy, especialy on the internet, seem to me to be 10x more preachy than religious people.
"You either agree with me or your dumb" Thank you for proving my point about the atheist mentality
When is the last time you've seen a door to door atheist? Seen an atheist standing on a literal soapbox in a park shouting at you about how wrong you are and the reprecussions of your false viewpoints? The last time one of your friends told you to come to an atheist meeting of some sort? The last time someone slid something under your door asking you to consider what your life would be like as an atheist? So on, so on, so on. I can say without any reasonable doubt that it is an objective FACT that religious folk push their viewpoints more than others. That should be fairly obvious to you anyways. Either you are actually dumb, or you're intentionally ignoring it to try to hold onto your otherwise invalidated point.
Post by
Skreeran
Unless their right?I'd ask you to prove you're right, but that would be questioning your faith, wouldn't it?
Beside, if you're right, that means many, many others with blind faith are wrong. If your faith is blind, how do you know you chose the right one and the others didn't? Your answer: I did. My question: How do you know? Your answer: I do. My question: But how do you
know?
Your answer: I just do.
That's no way to find the truth.
OK my man, that just about does it for me. Ive listened to you give one biggoted comment right after another, but that was the perverbial straw that broke the camels back.
Most Muslims DO NOT beleive in putting their children to death, not only is it aprehensible but its against the laws in most arab countries. Idk if your getting this ^&*! from some movie about terrorists or something, but its like you have red neck blinders on. You are taking the actions of a very fringe minority and blaming not only a religion, but a culture as a whole.I'm taking my knowledge about Islam in the Middle East right out of the news. Honor killings are
rife
in the Middle East, as is the belief that apostasy merits death.
The Fatwa committee at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the highest Islamic institution in the world, had this to say about a man in Egypt who converted to Christianity: "Since he left the Islam, he will be invited to express his regret. If he does not regret, he will be killed pertaining to rights and obligations of the Islamic law."
It also said that the same would be applied to his children when they reached maturity.
And if you want to claim that "those are just extremists," I would have to inform you that Egypt is one of the more
progressive and moderate
nations in the Middle East.
Post by
Gone
I seem to see atheists being a lot more preachy of late than your average person of faith.
See, the thing is, unless an atheist is being preachy, you don't even know he's an atheist. You assume he's an "average person of faith" because he doesn't say anything otherwise and you're raised to believe that is so.
The only sensible test is looking at the preachy-ness of preachy religious folk and preachy atheists. I think you'll agree that preachy religious folk are much more preachy than preachy atheists. If you don't agree... **** you're dumb. I'm not sorry to say that either; it would be negligent of me for you to say you disagree with that statement and not tell you how dumb that makes you look.
Well I do disagree, and no im not dumb, and fyi you make yourself look pretty dumb saying that.
If I look at a random person whos not being preachy, I make no assumptions about them, I sont assume they are religious or an atheist. And yes Atheist people who are preachy, especialy on the internet, seem to me to be 10x more preachy than religious people.
"You either agree with me or your dumb" Thank you for proving my point about the atheist mentality
When is the last time you've seen a door to door atheist? Seen an atheist standing on a literal soapbox in a park shouting at you about how wrong you are and the reprecussions of your false viewpoints? The last time one of your friends told you to come to an atheist meeting of some sort? The last time someone slid something under your door asking you to consider what your life would be like as an atheist? So on, so on, so on. I can say without any reasonable doubt that it is an objective FACT that religious folk push their viewpoints more than others. That should be fairly obvious to you anyways. Either you are actually dumb, or you're intentionally ignoring it to try to hold onto your otherwise invalidated point.
Once again "agree with me or your dumb" the atheist mentality at work
Hurr hurr gorsh, my eyz is open now, them durn christiens sure is silly goin door to door like and sliding them pamplets under our doors all sneaky like...
In all seriousness lets break down your argument. Do atheists go door to door or stand on a soapbox? No, but they do get very preachy in other ways... like idk, the person who made this thread? That BS website that he linked? I mean do you know the ammount of work that somebody had to do to create a site like that, I could understand dedicating a site to something you beleive in, but dedicating one to a LACK of beleif? really?
I stand by my point, atheists are just as preachy, if not more so than Christians, especialy on the internet. you can claim im stupid because I disagree with you all you want, thats fine I know I am far from it. I am however begining to question your intelligence making statments like that.
Post by
Gone
Unless their right?I'd ask you to prove you're right, but that would be questioning your faith, wouldn't it?
Beside, if you're right, that means many, many others with blind faith are wrong. If your faith is blind, how do you know you chose the right one and the others didn't? Your answer: I did. My question: How do you know? Your answer: I do. My question: But how do you
know?
Your answer: I just do.
That's no way to find the truth.
OK my man, that just about does it for me. Ive listened to you give one biggoted comment right after another, but that was the perverbial straw that broke the camels back.
Most Muslims DO NOT beleive in putting their children to death, not only is it aprehensible but its against the laws in most arab countries. Idk if your getting this ^&*! from some movie about terrorists or something, but its like you have red neck blinders on. You are taking the actions of a very fringe minority and blaming not only a religion, but a culture as a whole.I'm taking my knowledge about Islam in the Middle East right out of the news. Honor killings are
rife
in the Middle East, as is the belief that apostasy merits death.
The Fatwa committee at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the highest Islamic institution in the world, had this to say about a man in Egypt who converted to Christianity: "Since he left the Islam, he will be invited to express his regret. If he does not regret, he will be killed pertaining to rights and obligations of the Islamic law."
It also said that the same would be applied to his children when they reached maturity.
And if you want to claim that "those are just extremists," I would have to inform you that Egypt is one of the more
progressive and moderate
nations in the Middle East.
So there are a lot of deaths caused by the mafia in Russia, does that mean that all russians are criminals? Again all the killings you see in the middle east are by extremists, it is against their laws. Im not responding to the rest because it is just us arguing in circles about proving our own sides and such. like I said im done for the day, im too tired for this !@#$
EDIT: sorry for the double post
Post by
Dragalthor
Themediator; in answer to your last questions, the last time I saw someone on a soap box shouting about how wrong religions were was the last time I was in Hyde Park, London, in speakers corner so about 6 months ago. The last time I had someone knock on my door was about 2 years ago and the last time someone slid something under my door was about 5 years ago.
I'll let you draw the conclusions on that evidence.
Can you really call the extremeists when the majority of Muslims in the Middle East support those doctrines?
As is the same with everything else, the only people that make it onto the news are the small minority of extremists who like to demonstrate in front of the western media by burning national flags and shouting anti-western chants. These people are not the majority of Muslims in the Middle East as ably demonstrated by the uprisings in Egypt, Syria, Libya et. al. who are trying to turn their own countries into more democratic non-secular societies.
Post by
TheMediator
I seem to see atheists being a lot more preachy of late than your average person of faith.
See, the thing is, unless an atheist is being preachy, you don't even know he's an atheist. You assume he's an "average person of faith" because he doesn't say anything otherwise and you're raised to believe that is so.
The only sensible test is looking at the preachy-ness of preachy religious folk and preachy atheists. I think you'll agree that preachy religious folk are much more preachy than preachy atheists. If you don't agree... **** you're dumb. I'm not sorry to say that either; it would be negligent of me for you to say you disagree with that statement and not tell you how dumb that makes you look.
Well I do disagree, and no im not dumb, and fyi you make yourself look pretty dumb saying that.
If I look at a random person whos not being preachy, I make no assumptions about them, I sont assume they are religious or an atheist. And yes Atheist people who are preachy, especialy on the internet, seem to me to be 10x more preachy than religious people.
"You either agree with me or your dumb" Thank you for proving my point about the atheist mentality
When is the last time you've seen a door to door atheist? Seen an atheist standing on a literal soapbox in a park shouting at you about how wrong you are and the reprecussions of your false viewpoints? The last time one of your friends told you to come to an atheist meeting of some sort? The last time someone slid something under your door asking you to consider what your life would be like as an atheist? So on, so on, so on. I can say without any reasonable doubt that it is an objective FACT that religious folk push their viewpoints more than others. That should be fairly obvious to you anyways. Either you are actually dumb, or you're intentionally ignoring it to try to hold onto your otherwise invalidated point.
Once again "agree with me or your dumb" the atheist mentality at work
Hurr hurr gorsh, my eyz is open now, them durn christiens sure is silly goin door to door like and sliding them pamplets under our doors all sneaky like...
In all seriousness lets break down your argument. Do atheists go door to door or stand on a soapbox? No, but they do get very preachy in other ways... like idk, the person who made this thread? That BS website that he linked? I mean do you know the ammount of work that somebody had to do to create a site like that, I could understand dedicating a site to something you beleive in, but dedicating one to a LACK of beleif? really?
I stand by my point, atheists are just as preachy, if not more so than Christians, especialy on the internet. you can claim im stupid because I disagree with you all you want, thats fine I know I am far from it. I am however begining to question your intelligence making statments like that.
Yes, it is a "Accept the facts or I'm going to insult you" situation. Just like if you refuse to accept the facts of evolution, I'm going to call you stupid.
This quote pyramid is getting pretty awful.
Themediator; in answer to your last questions, the last time I saw someone on a soap box shouting about how wrong religions were was the last time I was in Hyde Park, London, in speakers corner so about 6 months ago. The last time I had someone knock on my door was about 2 years ago and the last time someone slid something under my door was about 5 years ago.
I'll let you draw the conclusions on that evidence.
Hard to say what that means without knowing how often you see the other side of the fence doing the same things.
Post by
Gone
Yes, it is a "Accept the facts or I'm going to insult you" situation. Just like if you refuse to accept the facts of evolution, I'm going to call you stupid.
This quote pyramid is getting pretty awful.
Fair enough im sorry, but you started the implications of insults first my friend.
Post by
Dragalthor
But you haven't given us any facts and as far as I remember from reading the thread no-one on here has said that they refuse to accept the facts of evolution. Just because the idiots are the ones that hit the headlines doesn't mean that the rest of the followers of the religion are the same.
Hard to say what that means without knowing how often you see the other side of the fence doing the same things.
This is exactly the point of my post. We only ever experience what each of us individually experiences so without a full unbiased survey we are just throwing hyperbole at each other in this debate.
Post by
Skreeran
So there are a lot of deaths caused by the mafia in Russia, does that mean that all russians are criminals? Again all the killings you see in the middle east are by extremists, it is against their laws. Im not responding to the rest because it is just us arguing in circles about proving our own sides and such. like I said im done for the day, im too tired for this !@#$Did I say all Muslims are murderers? No, of course not. There are progressive Muslims, ones who pick and choose which verses to take as truth based on better morality, but in the Middle East at least, those are the minority. The vast majority of Muslims do agree that death is an appropriate punishment for apostasy and honor killing
is
a major problem. It may be extrajudicial (at least outside of theocracies like Iran), but it is mostly ignored by the resident governments.
Again, I urge you to read about the issue. Try Salman Rushdie's
The Satanic Verses
or Ayaan Hirsi Ali's
Infidel.
Both are former Muslims, and both have been threatened with death dozens of times.
Post by
TheMediator
So there are a lot of deaths caused by the mafia in Russia, does that mean that all russians are criminals? Again all the killings you see in the middle east are by extremists, it is against their laws. Im not responding to the rest because it is just us arguing in circles about proving our own sides and such. like I said im done for the day, im too tired for this !@#$Did I say all Muslims are murderers? No, of course not. There are progressive Muslims, ones who pick and choose which verses to take as truth based on better morality, but in the Middle East at least, those are the minority. The vast majority of Muslims do agree that death is an appropriate punishment for apostasy and honor killing
is
a major problem. It may be extrajudicial (at least outside of theocracies like Iran), but it is mostly ignored by the resident governments.
Again, I urge you to read about the issue. Try Salman Rushdie's
The Satanic Verses
or Ayaan Hirsi Ali's
Infidel.
Both are former Muslims, and both have been threatened with death dozens of times.
I would say it has less to do with the majority outright participating, and most simply just don't have a problem with it. Sort of like Naz1 Germany. I don't think most Germans actually wanted to throw a Jew in a fire, but they sure as hell didn't do anything to stop it.
This is exactly the point of my post. We only ever experience what each of us individually experiences so without a full unbiased survey we are just throwing hyperbole at each other in this debate.
True, true. I, however, thought it was generally accepted that people like Jehovah's Witnesses are outright obnoxious in their behavior. While their conduct doesn't necessarily represent all people of faith, if we're drawing a line and saying "This side of the fence and that side of the fence", unfortunately they're on your side on things. Same with crazies like the West Baptist Church, or hell, scientologists.
Post by
Skreeran
I would say it has less to do with the majority outright participating, and most simply just don't have a problem with it. Sort of like Naz1 Germany. I don't think most Germans actually wanted to throw a Jew in a fire, but they sure as hell didn't do anything to stop it.Perhaps, but the fact remains that there is a problem. We can't just deny it altogether in the spirit of "tolerance." Yes, I believe in tolerating other people's difference, so long as they are not harming someone, but as soon as those difference begin doing damage to innocent people, I cannot continue to tolerate it.
Post by
Adamsm
So then at that point, you act just like the people you are seeing as doing the wrong act correct?
Post by
Gone
So there are a lot of deaths caused by the mafia in Russia, does that mean that all russians are criminals? Again all the killings you see in the middle east are by extremists, it is against their laws. Im not responding to the rest because it is just us arguing in circles about proving our own sides and such. like I said im done for the day, im too tired for this !@#$Did I say all Muslims are murderers? No, of course not. There are progressive Muslims, ones who pick and choose which verses to take as truth based on better morality, but in the Middle East at least, those are the minority. The vast majority of Muslims do agree that death is an appropriate punishment for apostasy and honor killing
is
a major problem. It may be extrajudicial (at least outside of theocracies like Iran), but it is mostly ignored by the resident governments.
Again, I urge you to read about the issue. Try Salman Rushdie's
The Satanic Verses
or Ayaan Hirsi Ali's
Infidel.
Both are former Muslims, and both have been threatened with death dozens of times.
I would say it has less to do with the majority outright participating, and most simply just don't have a problem with it. Sort of like Naz1 Germany. I don't think most Germans actually wanted to throw a Jew in a fire, but they sure as hell didn't do anything to stop it.
Thats completley different, honor killings are against arab laws, its not like the Nazis where it was the goverment. Its a group of extremists doing this @#$%, not the goverment.
Also
Im done for the day
/kicks self
Post by
Dragalthor
I still disagree with you that the majority of Muslims agree that death is an appropriate punishment for apostasy and that the majority beleive that honour killings are right and proper. I think that a closer argument would be to say that the minority agree with this viewpoint but the moajority are too scared to speak out about how wrong it is because then they would place themselves in the same situation.
I will admit that I have not read The Satanic Verses as frankly it bored me but I can certainly remember when the book was released and the outcry at that time. The Ayatollah Homeiny and the Supreme Leader of Iran issued the Fatwa against him.
Also I beleive that Salman Rusdie had renounced Islam quite some time before he publsihed the Satanic Verses but nothing was done until he published the book, speaking from memory about the time.
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