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Christianity - The Horse that Refuses to Die
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Post by
Gone
were both obviously smart
You see, with due respect, there's an example of our different premises.
And what exactly does that mean?
You raised the perception of logic as a defense against arguments of circular logic. You can't just 'agree to disagree'.
No I raised perception of logic as an explination as to why Crhistians and Atheists both make life decisioins based on logic and yet arrive at different conclusions. and "Agree to disagree" is more polite than saying "im tired of banging my head against a brick wall"
This debate isnt going anywhere.
EDIT: The fact that you keep arguing about people having different premise, when thats basicly the same thing I said several posts ago, makes me think even more that this debate is just going in circles.
Post by
Squishalot
And what exactly does that mean?
It means exactly that. You're assuming that we're both smart. I'm not making that assumption.
You said:
Its the same reason religious people get so offended when atheists claim that the reason they dont beleive in any type of God is because it gos against logic, I mean a thousand years ago human beings probobly thought that flight was illogical too but it clearly isnt.
Just because theres something that you dont have knoledge of dosnt mean its against logic, just logic as you perseive it
.
In other words, you're saying people get offended because the religious people have different logic to the atheists. Well:
a) They have different premises.
b) If they understood that they have different premises, then it's reasonable that logic will result in two different conclusions.
c) Therefore, there is no reason to be offended - just point out the different premises.
Instead, you're offended at the suggestion that your logic is incorrect. What this means is that you think either:
a) Your logic is as good as theirs, but your premises are different; or
b) Your premises are the same, but your logic is different, meaning one of you is right, and one of you is wrong.
If (a), then simply point out that the premises are different, rather than getting offended.
If (b), then your logic is probably wrong, because I'd bet every last penny I have that your premises aren't the same.
You're agreeing that people have different premises. Therefore, there's nothing to get offended about when someone says that your view is against all logic. So do you think religious people get offended?
Post by
Gone
And what exactly does that mean?
It means exactly that. You're assuming that we're both smart. I'm not making that assumption.
You said:
Its the same reason religious people get so offended when atheists claim that the reason they dont beleive in any type of God is because it gos against logic, I mean a thousand years ago human beings probobly thought that flight was illogical too but it clearly isnt.
Just because theres something that you dont have knoledge of dosnt mean its against logic, just logic as you perseive it
.
In other words, you're saying people get offended because the religious people have different logic to the atheists. Well:
a) They have different premises.
b) If they understood that they have different premises, then it's reasonable that logic will result in two different conclusions.
c) Therefore, there is no reason to be offended - just point out the different premises.
Instead, you're offended at the suggestion that your logic is incorrect. What this means is that you think either:
a) Your logic is as good as theirs, but your premises are different; or
b) Your premises are the same, but your logic is different, meaning one of you is right, and one of you is wrong.
If (a), then simply point out that the premises are different, rather than getting offended.
If (b), then your logic is probably wrong, because I'd bet every last penny I have that your premises aren't the same.
You're agreeing that people have different premises. Therefore, there's nothing to get offended about when someone says that your view is against all logic. So do you think religious people get offended?
ok 1) Im assuming were both smart because weve both presented smart answers.
2) Im not gonna debate the second half im just tootired lol. Like I said this is going in circles.
Post by
Azazel
I think you guys are going slightly off-topic - you know, discussing who's smart and who isn't and all...
I don't see religion dying as long as people have problems.
Post by
Gone
I think you guys are going slightly off-topic - you know, discussing who's smart and who isn't and all...
I don't see religion dying as long as people have problems.
Well we were discussing peoples perception of logic, I just mentioned "look were both smart people here" and he
decided to be an ass
implied that perhaps one of us was not.
Post by
Pwntiff
perception of logic
Faith and logic, when applied to the same concept, tend to be mutually exclusive.
Faith involves taking something as truth without proof. Logic is the process of proving something true or false.
Post by
ExDementia
You're assuming that we're both smart. I'm not making that assumption.
Quote of the week right there. Thanks for my new signature Squish.
(I'm not making the signature because of the context, I just am because it's a great quote. Nothing against you, Ryjacork.)
Post by
Gone
perception of logic
Faith and logic, when applied to the same concept, tend to be mutually exclusive.
Faith involves taking something as truth without proof. Logic is the process of proving something true or false.
Contrary to popular beleife people dont just have faith because they are raised into it or something, people choose to beleive in a God or religion because its a truththat they arrive at through their own logic, and that is why they have faith.
Beleif is no different than lack of beleife, in this religion and atheist can be kind of the same, people arrive at their truth through means of logic, whatever that truth may be is what differs.
Post by
OverZealous
perception of logic
Faith and logic, when applied to the same concept, tend to be mutually exclusive.
Faith involves taking something as truth without proof. Logic is the process of proving something true or false.
Contrary to popular beleife people dont
just
have faith because they are raised into it or something, people choose to beleive in a God or religion because its a truththat they arrive at through their own logic, and that is why they have faith.
Beleif is no different than lack of beleife, in this religion and atheist can be kind of the same, people arrive at their truth through means of logic, whatever that truth may be is what differs.
The "just" is the keyword right there. Being born into a religious family, it's very unlikely that you are to take a step away from religion(becoming atheist" in your lifetime. It happens, but much less frequently than in non-religious families.
Also, many children born into religious families would be kicked out if they stated that they don't believe, and the threat of being kicked out of the house as a child is, you know, frightening.
I have a friend whose parents ceased all communication with him when he told them that he did, honestly and with all of his heart, not believe in Allah and the statements of the Qur-an.
I would say however, that there is one huge difference between belief and the lack thereof.
Atheists and non-believers in general
tend
to require facts and logical answers, more so than people of faith, simply because faith does not require the same amount of logic.
Please note that I'm not saying this applies to everyone
Post by
Skreeran
- Religion has no logic, not "I dont see the logic in religion" just religion has no logic. This is a matter of opinion that most people would disagree with.I don't recall saying that exactly. Religion has its own sort of logic, theology, which builds logical arguments that simply presuppose the existence in a deity.
I don't think the belief in a deity is based on logic, however.
- Religion does more harm than good. Flat out not true.I believe it's true. Religion may do good, but all the good it does can easily be performed by secular functions as well, functions that don't base themselves on factually incorrect theories.
Meanwhile, religion brings with it things like 9/11, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and scores of other wars that didn't have to happen. Yes, many wars happen without religion, but the part that religion has played is undeniable.
- I take steps to remove religion by trying to convince people their beleifs are not true. This may be the most offensive thing that youve said, you may not be going out and knocking on peoples doors or physicaly trying to stop people from beleiving, but this is still very close to infringing on peoples rights. Most other people in this thread have just been trying to defend their own beleifs, you are the only one that said you are activley going out of your way to try and get people to NOT beleive what they beleive.If some 85% of the world believed the world was flat, and that no evidence would convince them otherwise, I'd be trying to break down that as well, especially if it had a history of causing violence.
I am not a troll. I am merely doing what I think is best for the world.
Religion was invented explain two things: "Why are we here?" and "Where do we go when we die?"
Science, specifically Physics, Chemistry and Biology have already given us the answer to how we got here. Our being here is inevitable. In M-theory, there are huge numbers of possible universes. Most of them do not support the development of life. A very small number of them do. Logically, we must live in one of those universes. After life inevitably develops, evolution takes over, and occasionally produces intelligent life, like us. That's how we got here.
The other question, "Where do we go when we die?" is unfortunately less satisfying to hear. My consciousness is the product of some 1,000,000,000,000,000 tiny synaptic processes occurring between my neurons, combined with various hormonal and other ceamical processes. When I die, "I" do not go anywhere. I simply cease to exist.
To borrow a metaphor from XKCD, let's say you have a house made of LEGO. When you take apart the house, where does it go? It's not in the LEGO box, those are just the pieces that the house was built from. The could be a house, or a spaceship, or a submarine... The house, as an entity, is gone.
It's not a very pleasant answer to the question, but I think that the truth is more important than what makes you feel good. I have made peace with my own inevitable demise. To be quite frank, I think that takes more maturity and guts than simply saying "I won't die. I won't die. I won't die."
It has uplifted me to achieve great things. If you wish to enter into a spiritual trance, pray for the holy spirit to enter you and consume your body. After about 50 minutes of meditation, your entire body will be numb and you will feel strength in your legs and arms. Your vision will be blurred due to the tears, your nose will become warm, and your lips will become numb. As the sweat drips down from your head to your neck, you look into the sky and see stars everywhere even in broad daylight. You have entered sage mode. In sage mode, anything is possible.This is called meditation, and it's a demonstrable effect that has been observed in people of all religious groups, from Christians to Buddhists to Atheists. I'm afraid I doubt the claim that it's some kind of "Holy Spirit."
I was able to channel this spiritual energy and use it at the soccer field. I was the goalie and we won our first section championships for soccer against the toughest undefeated team in the league. They couldn't score any goal on me because God was with me. Yes, if you pray hard enough, he will let you win. Just like the athiest son who prayed to god as a joke so that his mother will win the lottery. The following day, she won the lottery and he became a firm believer....I'm afraid this is anecdotal evidence, and I simply take it to be coincidence.
I have a friend whose parents ceased all communication with him when he told them that he did, honestly and with all of his heart, not believe in Allah and the statements of the Qur-an.He's lucky. The technical punishment for apostasy in Islam is death.
Post by
Heckler
(I sort of woke up in a thought-sorting mood, so here's a wall of text)
Also, many children born into religious families would be kicked out if they stated that they don't believe, and the threat of being kicked out of the house as a child is, you know, frightening.
Another statement that makes the religious side of the debate look much worse than better -- though maybe that was the intention. It's always been my opinion that
fear
(in one form or another) is the main motivator behind the inception, spread, and popularity of religion in general. Also, I was raised in a Religious family -- I sort of took it all for granted until I was 16 or 17 when I started really thinking about it (I was a Lutheran, they have a thing called Confirmation, which had the opposite effect it was intended to on me). That's when I decided that logical and reasoned thought is erosive to religious thought -- at least in my own mind. I never rebelled or lashed out at my religion, I just sort of "detached" from it slowly and steadily, never angry about it or at it.
Funden said a couple pages back that he felt "spoiled" -- I would call this proper. When I started to detach from my religion, I began to feel
envious
(for lack of a better word) of those that could look at the same set of texts and teachings that just created more and more skepticism in me, but they somehow came away a firm and true believer, with a
real
absolute
faith in which they are 100% secure. I couldn't tell if they were naive, or if I was being thickheaded; was something wrong with them, or me? Why can't I read the Bible and well up with rainbows and good feelings, absolutely secure that the creator of the universe is literally looking down on me and smiling... when all
they
have to do is sing a song together and be satisfied?
The only time in my life I was ever near 100% secure about my religion is when I had put no thought into it whatsoever. The instant I started actually
analyzing
what I was expected to believe, the percentage dropped and dropped and dropped. And every miracle I read about, every promise of eternal life, everything supernatural and unnecessary... they all made (and continue to make) so much more sense in my mind as a natural reaction of a group of scared humans writing fictional stories to make themselves feel better when facing the devastatingly real terror of
the unknown
.
And again, I wouldn't call myself an atheist, or anything actually -- the labels either way serve absolutely no purpose to me. I don't need religion (or anti-religion), and people who do need it... I don't hold that against them. Imagine if after you die, you just return to the same state you were before you were born... ceasing to exist... is that really so hard to believe? Creation existed for a long time without your soul, so it's at least
possible
that it will continue without it again. And in the face of such a mind-bendingly
real
possibility... I don't blame people for clinging to what might just be a Santa Claus story, even if part of them thinks that's all it is.
Personally, I don't need it. I don't
like
thinking about the unknowable-probability that what I consider existence will simply cease someday, but at the same time, I can't just assume that magical powers will make it different. So my solution is to simply not worry about it. I
know
what's real right now, I can see the world around me, and I can see millions of others going through the exact same existence as me. Without the need for religion
or
anti-religion, I can simply try to make this reality better whenever possible. I honestly do ask myself quite regularly 'is what I'm doing making the world a better place?' If God exists, he'll understand. If not, then the reality continues after me will be that much brighter, and that's enough to make me consider my actions worthwhile, meaningful, and important
now
.
Post by
Gone
Skree, seriously if you expect me to take you seriously at all you have to stop saying stupid #$%^ like that, the only parents that would put a child to death for lack of faith in islam are extremists, that is seriously such a biggoted thing to say. And please stop bringing up 9/11, its making you sound like a red neck.
As for all the good being done by religion being done by any non religious orginisation, this is true but the same can be said for every war and conflict started by religion. I mean odds are teh crusades would have happened absent religion, that was a time of conquest, religion was just a flagged that they wrapped themselves in to justifie it. And again you say that they are based on something "factualy incorect" your doing the same thing I pointed out about logic, because who are you to say whats factualy correct. Yes there have been a few wars that were blamed on religion, there have also been billions upon billions of dollars raised to cloth and feed the homeless, alchohalics and drug addicts have had their lives turned around by it. There have also been countless wars and deaths averted by religion if you go back to a time when it used to bring nations (or perhaps tribes would be a better word) together and prevented conflicts over territory.
And as to the final point, people dont base their lives on the world being flat, and the fact is you can factualy prove that the world is not flat, you cant factualy prove peoples religion to be wrong.
Sorry I didnt quote you, im on my iphone and i dont feel like copy pasting
Post by
Monday
And please stop bringing up 9/11, its making you sound like a red neck.
He
is
from Texas.
I mean what?
See, Heckler, I don't mind that. If you don't need religion, that's your choice and I can respect that. When somebody says that it's dangerous and it needs to be destroyed,
that's
when I start to get annoyed.
It's always been my opinion that fear (in one form or another) is the main motivator behind the inception, spread, and popularity of religion in general.
Not for mine.
Post by
killerdinoblood
And again, I wouldn't call myself an atheist, or anything actually -- the labels either way serve absolutely no purpose to me. I don't need religion (or anti-religion), and people who do need it... I don't hold that against them. Imagine if after you die, you just return to the same state you were before you were born... ceasing to exist... is that really so hard to believe?
Creation existed for a long time without your soul, so it's at least
possible
that it will continue without it again.
And in the face of such a mind-bendingly
real
possibility... I don't blame people for clinging to what might just be a Santa Claus story, even if part of them thinks that's all it is.
Okay,let me take a deep breath as i am debuting in this thread...
The meaning of a
''soul''
is something you cannot understand->you cannot use it as an example.Its not just the thing that is within your body,its something much more then that.Its a part of existance itself.Saying that Creation has existed before the existance of your souls is wrong since the very Creation of Creation itself requires your soul.To put it simply,a soul is the ''You'' entity in the different dimensions.After your ''Material Form'' in those different dimensions gets deceased (im not going to use the term died since death itself in the different dimensions may mean something else.)those essences,the ''You'' factor gets combined in what is a soul.A part of Existance itself,after this happens it is completely unknown what is to occur next but Human speculation is just too unadvanced to figure it out.The example of ''think how an Ant feels about Humans''is a very good one,and i can understand how hard is for a Human to put himself in the place of an ant.
I can also understand the Human need for curiosity.The need to question,and it is a good thing.As they say ''If you question,you are alive.''but when you question it does not mean you know the answer.
Post by
Azazel
That's your difinition of a soul, but other people might feel different about it.
Post by
Skreeran
Skree, seriously if you expect me to take you seriously at all you have to stop saying stupid #$%^ like that, the only parents that would put a child to death for lack of faith in islam are extremists, that is seriously such a biggoted thing to say. And please stop bringing up 9/11, its making you sound like a red neck.Look up Salman Rushdie some time. Or Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
Or just go
here.
Many,
many
people have been killed for deconverting from Islam. Perhaps not in America, where the government opposes it, but in other countries it's a huge problem.
And, like it or not, 9/11 was the product of religion, specifically Islam. I can think of no other aspect of human culture that can cause people to willingly kill themselves to harm others.
I highly recommend that you read
The End of Faith
by Sam Harris.
As for all the good being done by religion being done by any non religious orginisation, this is true but the same can be said for every war and conflict started by religion. I mean odds are teh crusades would have happened absent religion, that was a time of conquest, religion was just a flagged that they wrapped themselves in to justifie it. And again you say that they are based on something "factualy incorect" your doing the same thing I pointed out about logic, because who are you to say whats factualy correct. Yes there have been a few wars that were blamed on religion, there have also been billions upon billions of dollars raised to cloth and feed the homeless, alchohalics and drug addicts have had their lives turned around by it. There have also been countless wars and deaths averted by religion if you go back to a time when it used to bring nations (or perhaps tribes would be a better word) together and prevented conflicts over territory.The Crusades were started out of a Christian conviction to retake the Holy Land from the Muslim (and Jewish) heathens. It was thousands of miles away from Europe, and it could have never been undertaken if it weren't for religion.
And as far as religion helping people, you know, I think it's better to help people for the sake of
helping people
, rather than for the sake of converting them to your religion.
There are lots of secular aid organizations, and it is a role that can definitely be filled without religion.
As far as it being factually incorrect, show me factual proof of God, and I will stop calling it factually incorrect. That means no anecdotes, no philosophy, no theology. Show me definite proof, and I will change my mind. Unfortunately, no one so far has actually been able to offer me this proof.
Post by
Heckler
See, Heckler, I don't mind that. If you don't need religion, that's your choice and I can respect that. When somebody says that it's dangerous and it needs to be destroyed,
that's
when I start to get annoyed.
It's always been my opinion that fear (in one form or another) is the main motivator behind the inception, spread, and popularity of religion in general.
Not for mine.
I do agree that religion
in general
is very dangerous (keep in mind, the term
in general
there is important... let's say I look at 15 statues, all beautiful and perfect. And someone tells me that 14 of them were created by skilled artists, and one was created by God himself, but no one knows which one. I can't tell by inspection which one is significantly different from the others, and there's people willing to present me with "evidence" for each of them... that's how I view the various Religions, and so it's not possible for me to judge them individually. They must be judged as a group in my mind, each against the same standard). So that doesn't mean that I think every single distinct religion is dangerous, but I do think that
every religion has the power to be dangerous
(because if even one of them demonstrably does, then they all must).
That doesn't make me think it should be
abolished
or destroyed necessarily (although I do think it's unnecessary, and that if it magically disappeared, I'd like to think the world would be a better place. But part of me knows that's not perfectly true either, and since I can't know for sure, I don't advocate it) -- but I do like seeing religions evolve and reform over time. Fundamentalism is almost always a bad thing (and that applies to more than Religion).
The meaning of a ''soul'' is something you cannot understand
This is a statement that I won't argue, and if you read my statement as me trying to
define
for the world what a soul is (to which you felt the need to come correct me), then you missed the entire point of my post.
Post by
Monday
As far as it being factually incorrect, show me factual proof of God, and I will stop calling it factually incorrect.
That's flawed logic. Just because something hasn't been proved doesn't mean that it is then factually incorrect. If it was disproved without a doubt, or used incorrect arithmatic or something of the like, it would be factually incorrect.
As it is, this is a constantly ongoing debate with neither side having proved their point. To claim that the other side is factually incorrect, without a doubt, is incredibly arrogant.
Post by
killerdinoblood
As far as it being factually incorrect, show me factual proof of God, and I will stop calling it factually incorrect. That means no anecdotes, no philosophy, no theology. Show me definite proof, and I will change my mind. Unfortunately, no one so far has actually been able to offer me this proof.
This is the exact reason there is no proof.God tests us,he rewards those who believe in him aldo there is no proof.In the Bible ''To question'' means ''To sin''.Curiosity is really bad there,im not sure but i think curiosity or something like that is forbidden since its listed in the 7 Deadly Sins (but im not sure of this at all).The point is questioning is really bad.
Questioning is the effect of Satan.Since questioning something means showing rebellion against it.Disbelief in some form.And,due to obvious reasons,Satanic creations (a.k.a curiosity and rebellion) are forbidden by God.I am no one,i cannot judge your Atheistic believes,i do not have the right to call you a fool but...why do you question when it is bad...
As for proof.Just going to a holy place,you feel the holy energy.If you are blinded by Atheism you dont,if your not religeous you cannot have the facts you want.That is why,unfortunately you will always call it
''factually incorrect''
.
That's your difinition of a soul, but other people might feel different about it.
Again i say,i cannot call you a fool since i dont have the right to.But,it is what it is.The fact that you believe otherwise doesnt make it so.This could be used against my statements however >.<.
Post by
Gone
Skree, seriously if you expect me to take you seriously at all you have to stop saying stupid #$%^ like that, the only parents that would put a child to death for lack of faith in islam are extremists, that is seriously such a biggoted thing to say. And please stop bringing up 9/11, its making you sound like a red neck.Look up Salman Rushdie some time. Or Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
Or just go
here.
Many,
many
people have been killed for deconverting from Islam. Perhaps not in America, where the government opposes it, but in other countries it's a huge problem.
And, like it or not, 9/11 was the product of religion, specifically Islam. I can think of no other aspect of human culture that can cause people to willingly kill themselves to harm others.
Ex-trem-ists
And as far as religion helping people, you know, I think it's better to help people for the sake of helping people, rather than for the sake of converting them to your religion.
There are lots of secular aid organizations, and it is a role that can definitely be filled without religion
Just because they
could have
been done by non religious orginisations isnt relivant, every war you mentioned could have been started by non religious reasons as well.
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