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Biofeedback - Replacing Medicine?
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Post by
Mousysqueak
EDIT: Go to page 4 and read the logic behind this post. Then, come back, and you'll understand why I said what I said. I didn't have access to the research material that I used to write this at the time that I wrote it - dumb thing to write it, but meh.
Hello, fellow Wowhead members. I wanted to bring up a particular discussion topic. I've searched through the forums here, and it hasn't been brought up before (to the best of my knowledge).
The topic is well... listed in the topic line of this thread.
For those of you who aren't familiar with what the Placebo Effect is, a quick google search
reveals
what
it
is
.
The other part of this is Biofeedback,
which
can
also
be
googled
.
My
thing to make you guys viciously argue and troll each other about
question is this:
If in scientific studies (like experimentation about the effectiveness of a new medication), the placebo produces similar/better results than the actual medicine, why do we even have medicine of that type? Yeah, the medical community has to make their money (the obvious answer - NOT what I am looking for), but couldn't they just charge an outrageous amount of money and teach their patients to be experts with biofeedback?
I'm thinking that they could average the amount of money that a person in "X" country pays in their lifetime on medicine and charge them that amount to teach them how to train their bodies to "heal" themselves.
Obviously, this wouldn't work , but I was wondering if you guys wanted to further discuss the topic of Biofeedback and the Placebo Effect.
Maybe together, we can come up with some solid ideas to this?
I'd ask that you guys don't use this thread to rip each other to pieces. That was not my intent in creating this.
If this is a necro, lock away - I'd like to see where the original discussion was, as the built-in search engine didn't find anything relating to this.
Thank you for your thoughts, and I hope you have a great rest of the day.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Uh....
Placebo groups are used with experimental groups in order to show that a drug or treatment in fact does have a benefit.
Post by
Mousysqueak
Uh....
Placebo groups are used with experimental groups in order to show that a drug or treatment in fact does have a benefit.
Yes, but in a number of circumstances, the placebo creates a similar/more beneficial effect than the drug/treatment itself.
That leads me to wonder why we need that specific drug/treatment. Obviously, this topic isn't trying to make everyone immune to every disease (as there are more circumstances where the drug outperforms the placebo), but I wanted to stir the melting pot and see what others thought.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Yes, but in a number of circumstances, the placebo creates a similar/more beneficial effect than the drug/treatment itself.
If the placebo response is higher than the standard index, the drug is deemed not efficacious. I don't see what the problem is?
Post by
Mousysqueak
Yes, but in a number of circumstances, the placebo creates a similar/more beneficial effect than the drug/treatment itself.
If the placebo response is higher than the standard index, the drug is deemed not efficacious. I don't see what the problem is?
I never said that there was a problem. I was merely suggesting the possibility that Biofeedback could be used to increase the number of cases in which the placebo response is "higher than the standard index." To be honest, I'm not particularly interested in going back in forth debating the merit of whether or not you like the topic. I created this to stir some discussion of Biofeedback - maybe some user works with a medicine-creating company, and they have experience in this field or have seen the results that Biofeedback had on a medical testing experiment. Maybe someone has "mastered" the effects of Biofeedback and has some interesting stories of how it related to medicine (e.g. being able to "cure" themselves of some illness.
Yeah, I could have just found this on the internet and done a few hours of research, but that could be said for most forum discussions. The idea is to take a topic that can be researched by multiple people, and they share their findings/experiences.
/back on topic
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
You don't seem to know how placebo-controlled studies work. Unless you can show valid research showing that a drug was released into the market based on studies where the placebo groups had better results than the experimental groups, then your topic doesn't even have a grounding.
Post by
Mousysqueak
You don't seem to know how placebo-controlled studies work. Unless you can show valid research showing that a drug was released into the market based on studies where the placebo groups had better results than the experimental groups, then your topic doesn't even have a grounding.
Maybe I'm confusing you - I'm not entirely sure. I never stated that a drug-that-was-outperformed-by-a-placebo has been released to the market. Yes, in the case that the placebo outperforms the actual drug, the drug is reworked/scrapped/other option. I'm not claiming to be an expert on the topic, and if you'd like to clarify the process and show your knowledge of it, be my guest.
The point of this topic is to consider the possibility that we don't need certain drugs as a whole - that we can use Biofeedback control of our bodies to replace certain medicines . You haven't seemed to address this at all. Your only responses have been attacking the Placebo Effect area of this, and yeah, I didn't put any concrete research on the OP. I didn't do that because I didn't feel it was needed. I wasn't putting any statements that said that a drug (in the case of the above paragraph) was released on the market - so why would I need to back that up with research? There ARE cases that a placebo outperforms an actual drug (YOU have agreed to this, so no research needed), and the drug doesn't get onto the market. The point is that either the drug sucks and needs to be reworked or we have more control over our bodies than we are willing to admit.
If you don't like the concept of the thread, don't respond. Let the thread die. Hell, let it get locked because we're about to hit page 2 without having a single on-topic response.
Just to be anal and repeat this so we don't have any more "confusion" on what exactly the topic of this threat is supposed to be:
The point of this topic is to consider the possibility that we don't need certain drugs as a whole - that we can use Biofeedback control of our bodies to replace certain medicines .
The example and original bringing-up of the idea of the Placebo Effect was used to illustrate this possibility and suggest a possible explanation/source of evidence for the above bolded statement. If you agree with it, cool. If you don't, please post a response stating another possible cause or explanation for the above.
/Back. On. Topic.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
There ARE cases that a placebo outperforms an actual drug (YOU have agreed to this, so no research needed), and the drug doesn't get onto the market.
This doesn't even make sense.
The only difference between a group on the drug and a group on a placebo is the actual drug. Statistically, both groups will be under the same placebo effects. The only time that a placebo group will outperform an experimental group is if the drug is having negative effects, instead of the intended positive effects. Any drug that has a positive effect will always outperform a placebo.
The placebo effect is minuscule, as has been shown by extensive
meta-analysis
Post by
Squishalot
The only difference between a group on the drug and a group on a placebo is the actual drug. Statistically, both groups will be under the same placebo effects. The only time that a placebo group will outperform an experimental group is if the drug is having negative effects, instead of the intended positive effects. Any drug that has a positive effect will always outperform a placebo.
This, by definition.
Imagine that a placebo gives +10 effect.
A drug, by definition, will give +10 (placebo effect) + X (drug effect), because by taking the drug, they will believe that they are taking something good for them in the same way manner as the placebo.
Therefore, as long as X > 0, the drug will be better. So as far as selling a product is concerned, good drugs that hit the market will always be more effective than placebos.
Post by
Mousysqueak
Restatement of the Original Post, since by some miracle, I managed to misdirect you both with some form of troll-bait or something:
The point of this topic is to consider the possibility that we don't need certain drugs as a whole - that we can use Biofeedback control of our bodies to replace certain medicines .
Thoughts?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Are drugs the only effective means of reversing abnormal conditions? Of course not. That's a bit of an irrelevant question. Drugs will be used for as long as they remain effective. If something if another drug or therapy is scientifically shown to be more effective, that one will replace the old one.
If you're specifically interested in biofeedback as a mode of therapy, then it has been scientifically shown to be effective (level 5 efficacy) in only one case so far: female urinary incontinence. There are several conditions behind that (level 4 efficacy). Cf.
http://www.isnr.org/uploads/EvidenceBasedYuchaMontgomeryW.pdf
Post by
Mousysqueak
Are drugs the only effective means of reversing abnormal conditions? Of course not. That's a bit of an irrelevant question. Drugs will be used for as long as they remain effective. If something if another drug or therapy is scientifically shown to be more effective, that one will replace the old one.
True enough, but I'm investigating the possibility that Biofeedback could be the thing that replaces these drugs. I'm not able to do the seriously-hardcore scientific research (e.g. finding some 30 year old study from Nigeria or something), but I was curious if any other Wowhead members knew anything more about the topic.
Are you aware of anything relating to this?
Post by
Squishalot
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1276&bih=574&q=faith+based+healing+studies&aq=f&aqi=g6g-v4&aql=&oq=
Christian-backed studies are typically flawed in this manner. Non-religious studies on placebos generally show it to be not effective.
If you can replace a drug, then the drug wasn't effective in the first place. See point about placebo effect vs drug effect.
No matter what, if through biofeedback control, you can increase the placebo effect by double, for example, a working drug will provide a higher benefit*. A placebo in the new scenario might be as effective as current day drugs in the current scenario, but future drugs will be even more effective. For example:
Drug: Current Future
Placebo +10 +15
FluMed +10+5 +15+5
Realistically, we don't need a lot of medicinal drugs that we use now. The thing is, they help us to recover faster than otherwise. Likewise, even if we could improve the placebo level of health improvement, medicinal drugs will still help us to recover faster, meaning that they will never be truly replaced.
* Edit: Unless your control involves convincing yourself that drugs are evil and creations of the Devil. Google 'Christian Science'**.
** Not to be mistaken for scientific views of non-denominational Christianity. Christian Science is a separate denomination in and of itself.
Post by
240135
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Mousysqueak
On a more serious note, the placebo effect
only works if you believe it will
. so, if someone has cancer and thinks they will die, and they are given thousands of placebos, they will still die, but if you give them chemotherapy, they might live, and a doctor isn't going to spend time testing a patients gullibility or hope when they could be spending time finding out what is actually wrong with the person and giving them medicine that they know will help them, even though the placebo
could
work better and have fewer side effects.
Bolded for emphasis. That's somewhat of what I'm getting at - if we can convince ourselves that the placebo effect WILL be greater than the effect of the drug, then what is the purpose of the drugs? Now, obviously, it's a little odd to think that a person can cure themselves of cancer by thinking hard enough about it. However, it's a cool concept.
Interesting feedback is interesting. Keep it coming. xD
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
You're mistaking a qualitative description for a quantitative measurement thereof. A placebo's effect is qualitative, so you can't start tacking on quantitative assumptions. So thinking that drug X will cure my cold and thinking that drug Y will cure my cancer has the exact same qualitative effect, but that doesn't mean that they will have the same quantitative result (the eradication of the condition in z% of the cases).
Edit: TL;DR, placebos won't cure cancer.
Post by
Mousysqueak
You're mistaking a qualitative description for a quantitative measurement thereof. A placebo's effect is qualitative, so you can't start tacking on quantitative assumptions. So thinking that drug X will cure my cold and thinking that drug Y will cure my cancer has the exact same qualitative effect, but that doesn't mean that they will have the same quantitative result (the eradication of the condition in z% of the cases).
Edit: TL;DR, placebos won't cure cancer.
/agree that placebos won't cure cancer and such...
However, if we can CONVINCE ourselves that it will work, what then? Obviously, I'm not talking about things as serious as cancer, but why can't we take a water-pill when we get the flu?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Because water will do nothing to kill a virus, nor will your mental state. Again, the placebo effect is extremely minimal. If anything, all it can really do is aid recovery.
Post by
Mousysqueak
Because water will do nothing to kill a virus, nor will your mental state. Again, the placebo effect is extremely minimal. If anything, all it can really do is aid recovery.
Obviously this isn't "scientific," per se, but I was able to find
something
that explains a little better what exactly I'm talking about. A large number of the things listed on that site are things that normally are medicated - with the biofeedback techniques, sometimes the participant is no longer required to be taking those meds (they are "cured" or no longer exhibit symptoms even while not on the meds any more).
Post by
Murrdurr
Biofeedbacks flaw atm is the cost vs cost of medication and the overall efficiency of it, its nowhere near the state of actually being able to overthrow medication on any 1 thing that meds can help cure(im not stating this as fact, just on the little bit I have read of biofeedback). I do not have much respect for Biofeedback or "Organic" meds, probably because I took Pharmacology & Medical Research for a few years. And as far as Placebo goes, its not meant to be used in place of real medication, its used to calm people down who think they are sick all the time but the Doctor can not fine anything wrong when they diagnose them, so they give them a Placebo. Patient says they feel better and are on their merry way until their mind convinces them they are "sick" again.
Because people like that are to say the lease, weird. Why? because they will think all day and convince themselves they are sick and the more they believe it the more the mind tells them they are sick, they could even feel like they have all the symptoms for something but in reality they are fine. A Doctor will generally give the patient a sample prescription most of the time before slipping them the Placebo though, and just about all the time the patient will say the real medication does not work, so thats when the Dr. goes with the Placebo telling them its a stronger version of what they have. Now that they have been told before hand that its "stronger" they will be thinking this when they take it, and the mind convinces itself that it was indeed stronger and they are now fine.
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