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Isn't selling gold.... illegal ?
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Post by
KittyKat77
Blizz ToS (Gold selling part, that is) isn't really recognized as "breaking the law" outside of it's own services
Actually, the gold selling companies are selling a commodity to which they do not have any legal claim. WoW gold is, like everything else in WoW, Blizzard's property. In simple terms, they are selling stolen goods.
Wrong.
They don't create gold by hacking or exploiting the game.
When they receive an order, they don't break into the database and grant their characters 50k gold which they then mail to you. Now that would be illegal.
They are merely selling the result of a certain amount of time that they invested in the game. Farming gold is not against the ToS and neither is mailing gold to another player. It's like asking a friend to do 25 daily quests for you. The only difference here is the fact that you pay chinese farmers in a certain curency and your friend in naturals.
Whether you like it or not, there is nothing going on here that would justify a lawsuit or account ban.
PS: Don't buy from those websites that are being spammed ingame.
Your evidence for this statement is?
There are dozens of gold sellers who DO hack the game. My opinion is that most of them do, if not all.
They hack to advertise their gold sites (floating level one toons in Orgrimmar/Stormwind).
They hack to obtain resources, by mining under the ground or running around at speeds which are impossible to achieve by ordinary in-game means.
They steal accounts from those who are foolish enough to visit their websites, and while I do think the victims were asking for it by buying gold, it doesn't make account stealing right.
And as for "nothing that would justify an account ban?"
Blizzard doesn't HAVE to "justify" anything, according to the TOS, but if someone is supporting gold sellers in their activities by purchasing their services, they do deserve a ban in my opinion. Blizzard apparently shares this opinion because they do ban people for buying gold, selling gold, and otherwise messing with the in-game economy.
Post by
Murrdurr
As someone who is in the know about this because I used to do it with the currency and accounts in EQ is that there are actual sites that are safe to use to buy gold, however those are the sites that do not advertise spam in-game and on other sites forums, its a type of site you find out by word of mouth. Some people might not know of certain e-bay like sites just for MMOs where just single people farm up mass amounts of gold and just sells it for a little side profit. Theres plenty of ways to buy gold without worrying about getting hacked later on but the average joe would just type in "buy wow gold" in google and fall to some shady site that laters steals their info. But I will also admit its just not worth it in WoW, gold is just too easy to come across and unlike other MMOs its not that important to have alot of gold.
Post by
ChairmanKaga
Wrong. They don't create gold by hacking or exploiting the game.
Are you kidding?
There is endless QQ on the Blizz forums about hacked accounts. Now just
who
do you think is hacking those accounts, and
why
?
There's an old urban legend where
Willie Sutton
said he robbed banks "because that's where the money is". Look at any gold selling site (if you dare) and see how much real American cash idiots will drop for the convenience. Then ask yourself, if I'm the gold seller, why spend all that time farming when legit players have already done it for me? Go where the money is.
Every hacked account is one less dollar they have to pay their Chinese slave labor. It's all about their bottom line. This, much like drug running, is a big-money underground business, and they choose the path of least resistance for their supply chain.
So if you buy gold, keep in mind the sort of industry you're funding.
Post by
552706
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
528361
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
691268
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
shakakoz
Alright...I'm confused...I understand that we can make a business for practically anything for america...and there are SOOOOO many gold sites these days...But isn't selling gold illegal ? Can't the gold site owners be arrested / sued for having such a business?
It's not illegal. You aren't breaking any laws, just Blizzards EULA. So Blizzard can ban you, but they can't call the cops after you. Selling virtual goods is perfectly legal. I challenge anyone to show me a law that says otherwise.
And yes, Blizzard claims property of all virtual goods within the game, but that is just what it is - a
claim
. As to whether selling gold constitutes "selling stolen goods", the "goods" are under Blizzards control at all times. That is to say, they can go and create or delete stuff at any time, so it isn't really stolen if it didn't go anywhere or if Blizzard still has control over it.
Don't buy gold - it is easy to make nowadays.
Post by
Sinespe
And yes, Blizzard claims property of all virtual goods within the game, but that is just what it is - a claim
The two versions of "claim" you use here mean different things. Nice try, but that won't work. Blizzard claiming property of all virtual goods in the game means that it
does
belong to them. The word is not a weak word. It is
not
synonymous with "appeal", as you try to make it.
Post by
327953
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Karrie
There is endless QQ on the Blizz forums about hacked accounts.
Except those accounts haven't been hacked. Clicking on suspicious links and entering your account information on a random site != being hacked. Stupid people deserve to be exploited.
But how do you know the gold people buy comes from those 'hacked' accounts? You don't. For all you know, that gold could come from normal players who happen to have too much gold and sell it to pay for their subscription. Some gold sellers actually act as middlemen for such people: They buy gold and resell it with a profit. No 'hacking' involved.
Post by
Adamsm
There is endless QQ on the Blizz forums about hacked accounts.
Except those accounts haven't been hacked. Clicking on suspicious links and entering your account information on a random site != being hacked. Stupid people deserve to be exploited.
But how do you know the gold people buy comes from those 'hacked' accounts? You don't. For all you know, that gold could come from normal players who happen to have too much gold and sell it to pay for their subscription. Some gold sellers actually act as middlemen for such people: They buy gold and resell it with a profit. No 'hacking' involved.
And while that surely exists, you also know just as many are from hackers; it's a two way street after all, and the idiots who buy gold then scream about getting hacked get what they deserve.
Post by
Monday
Clicking on suspicious links and entering your account information on a random site != being hacked.
On the contrary, you may believe it is a Blizzard site. And then you are being hacked.
Post by
Sinespe
Except those accounts haven't been hacked. Clicking on suspicious links and entering your account information on a random site != being hacked. Stupid people deserve to be exploited.
But how do you know the gold people buy comes from those 'hacked' accounts? You don't. For all you know, that gold could come from normal players who happen to have too much gold and sell it to pay for their subscription. Some gold sellers actually act as middlemen for such people: They buy gold and resell it with a profit. No 'hacking' involved.
See, this is why I took the "It doesn't matter from what source the gold comes" line of argument.
Post by
Strandvaskeren
There is a VERY easy way for the gold sellers to prove their case. All they have to do is have a screenshot of the transaction. They could then make their case that the gold was paid for and delivered.
Hmm, lets see..
I open an in-game mail, enter 10000g in the money slot, write "Hey lostdorf, here's that 10000g you asked to borrow, enjoy", click send, open my bags to prove I've got 32123g, hover my mouse over the yes button on "Do you really want to send 10000g to lostdorf?" and take a screenshot. Then I cancel the mail, send 10000g to one of my own chars, open my bags to prove I've only got 22123g now and take another screenshot.
So lostdorf, I've just proved you owe me 10000g, didn't I?
Not to mention how easily screenshots are tampered with.
The only one that can prove the in-game transaction is Blizzard, screenshots prove nothing.
Honestly why would ANYONE think they could make a deal with people who:
1. Have no issue stealing from others
2. Have no respect for Blizzard's TOS
3. Are a shady business at best
and have that deal honored....
Now that part is spot on. Don't do deal with thieves. They will tell you that none of the gold is stolen from hacked account, but never trust a thief either. When people buy gold they basically pay the thieves to steal, their real life money is the thieves pay check for ripping friends and guildies off with keyloggers.
Post by
Strandvaskeren
But how do you know the gold people buy comes from those 'hacked' accounts? You don't. For all you know, that gold could come from normal players who happen to have too much gold and sell it to pay for their subscription. Some gold sellers actually act as middlemen for such people: They buy gold and resell it with a profit. No 'hacking' involved.
That is THE most naive argument I've ever seen..
I've got no beef with you if you make a deal with a real life friend or a trusted guildie where you KNOW the golded is grinded in a legit way, but don't for a second believe those sites that claim they are only acting as middlemen, no thief would ever admit to stealing anyway..
Post by
pezz
Stupid people deserve to be exploited.
Somewhere, Nietzsche smiled.
On topic: Blizzard definitely owns everything in-game, and selling something you have no right to sell is definitely illegal, at least in the US.
The catch, as I said, is that to be prosecuted under US law when you don't live there and aren't a citizen there requires the government presiding over the offender in question to be forthright and forthcoming in expediting the same. As a rule of thumb, this is more trouble than it's worth for gold selling in WoW.
Post by
ChairmanKaga
On topic: Blizzard definitely owns everything in-game, and selling something you have no right to sell is definitely illegal, at least in the US.
That implies that gold (and other virtual items) meet the legal definition of "something".
This is why MDY v. Blizzard keeps riding the appeals court merry-go-round, and why Blizzard had to take the rather novel route of a DMCA/copyright claim. Most law that would apply to physical items (like theft) is not prepared to handle the virtual world.
Gold sellers are not doing anything
criminally
actionable under most sane interpretations of law.
Post by
301468
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Pwntiff
It would be game-breaking. One of the things I like is the mostly free market. There's enough inflation through the course of the game's progression, without the forced inflation of "legit" gold sales.
Post by
Xiamaru
I am 100 % certain that people who honestly believe only "stupid players" gets hacked, have never tried getting hacked themselves.
I know someone who got hacked, who possess several anti-spyware/virus programs, never uses the internet browser for anything but flash games like Kongregate, (not even Wowhead O_o), who still got hacked. Likewise, couple of weeks ago, my brother got hacked too, and curiously, he was in posssession of an Authenticator.
Now, as much as I love the line "ONLI SDUPID PPL GET HAXXED, HAHA NooB" people like to throw around, the sheer stupidity of those comments pretty much invalidate anything else you have to say, how right it might otherwise have sounded. But hey, if you really want to be threated like an idiot, go ahead and presume the worst.
In the end, I don't think Blizzard would file lawsuits of any kind to all who deals with these things, buy or sell. It's like internet Piracy. Sony files a few, maybe 100.000 cases, were only maybe 30.000 are actually responded to. They then leave the rest alone, and take the other cases through court. They don't do this to make up for the loss they recieved. They do it only to make an example - to inspire a certain amount of "fear" in the populace of those sites, in order to make them stop with what they are doing.
Now a ban, that's a whole other story. I have once gotten a ban scheduled to be 6 months long, because of "Dubious contact with Gold Sellers". This dubious contact being me writing a reply to someone asking if I wanted to buy gold: "Of course, I'd LOVE to pay you for your service of allowing me to perma-ban your annoying spam-bot" (which I have macro'd on all character for easy reply, regardless of where I am, and regardless of the otherwise obvious fact that they probably wont even see the message), followed by a "report spam" click.
Blizzard can, and will, ban you. They need but the slightest idea you might, possibly, in the near future, or maybe even in the past, have had illegal contact with gold sellers. The banners mood most likely determines how easily your account is banned. Likewise for removing the ban - it may or may not require convincing of the employee you get in contact with. Some of them don't even ask questions, and simply unban your account. Others outright refuse, and would gladly spend half an hour asking questions, trying to dig up a confession that you did something you weren't allowed to do. As already stated, our nice ToA pretty much allows Blizzard to Permaban all accounts on all servers without warning, and we wouldn't be able to do #$%^ about it. Granted, that's very bad for business, which is why they don't even ban all accounts who are only "suspected" of gold selling.
I gotta say, I'm glad Blizzard takes interest in us. Blizzard really couldn't care less about this whole gold selling thing. Why? At best, it allows them to charge us a few months more from people farming for gold in order to get some epic mount of equally, but let's be honest here - Those people that care about that, would have stayed anyway. I actually believe Blizzard is only maintaining ADDITIONAL accounts by having Gold Sellers plague the game. This means the only reason Blizzard even cares, if because it makes us, the players who truly care about the game, happy. I can't see it in any other way, and if someone else can, feel free to enlighten me. I just fail to see where Blizzard loses anything.
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