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So how about making WoW hard again?
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Post by
44284
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Post by
lonewarrior
But new players didn't have to be left behind...just grouped according to their progression.
I too am a guild leader. I created raiding parties according to progression. A member 800gs less then a similar member wasn't given a spot in the same raiding party. I put them in a progression group that fit them. I never allowed core progression to stall for my dedicated and best members.
The motto of my guild was that you brought to the guild and not what the guild was suppose to give you.
That's assuming that your guild has the membership to run multiple raids. We had, at our largest, 150 characters in our guild; those 150 characters belonged to roughly 40 accounts, and from memory only around 30 of those had characters at the level cap.
That meant at we could set up approximately three 10-man groups (I say approximately because not all of them
wanted
to raid).
We also had limited raid time. Typically it came down to choosing between running earlier raids to gear up new members, or running progression raids.
:) you seem like a nice guy. I ran my guild at first a lot like you. Always wanting to involve everyone and making sure everyone manage to pick up loot. Like a coach you view the guild as team and what's best for it. I would stay on after raids to help lower level members..give up my spot to make newer members feel welcome. But this came back to bite me. As soon I as got someone up to par ..some raiding guild would try to siphon them off. I did all the work and they would reap the rewards. As my guild expanded I began to realize that I need to keep focus on where we were progression was. As much as I wanted to grow the guild..I came to the conclusion that for guild progression I would only accept members who were on par with where we were or where they could fit.
Sometimes you have to view it as an individual member. People want to progress..if you stagnate the top players your going to lose your guild anyway...so I figured better to lose from the bottom then from the top. This is the whole point of the guild system...to find one that fits where you are at the moment.
I agree with Aestu that Kara was the greatest instance because it had all the qualities.. however many players considered Kara overtuned or just outright difficult. Also many guilds stagnated in Kara because of those qaulities that made it great. While you and I think it's amazing... it isn't so amazing when you spend millions of dollars developing two more tiers of content only to see the base ram their heads against the Karazhan wall.
In addition to this: I'll have to find the link, but BC was far worse at allowing all players to experience all content - specifically, raiding content. Only a very small percentage of the overall people actually got into the higher-end raids when they were the 'end tier' raid content.
This where difference of opinions occur. Mine is "who ever said everyone is entitled to see endgame contents." This seems to have become the prevailing trend in this game...a sense of entitlement. I not saying right or wrong...I guess it's just how we have been made to view things.
Being an older gentlemen I remember in my little league where only the champ team won the trophies. I wanted one so bad I made myself into a better player.
Not to long ago I went with my nephew to his leagues closing ceremony. They gave everyone a trophy. O.o I don't know... is this how it is now?...make everyone happy with a false sense of accomplishment.
You set plateaus..those that can reach it..do...those that can't reside happily at their own level of achievement. Lowering the plateau doesn't benefit the game...it dilutes it.
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306612
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93865
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93865
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93865
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93865
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Post by
xaratherus
How many tiers of content have you done in WotLK, as progression, at the level at which they were tuned to be played? How many in TBC?
Naxx, OS, each VoA release, Ulduar (did not complete), ToC, ICC, and Ruby Sanctum. And yes, that was at level.
Why didn't your players do the content with your guild, why did they move to other guilds? What was wanting in your guild?
I thought I had made that fairly clear, but to state it again: As we took on new members, we attempted to help them gear up in the old raids. That left limited time to try and progress. The folks that left felt that we should ignore any new people and cut out running Karazhan and old raids, and focus on progression, to the exclusion of helping any newcomers. When we did not do that, they left and went to guilds that
would
do that.
If it's not better than why thrust players into it? Why not be content with the first tier if it's all the same?
There's not a problem with being content with the first tier of content - as long as you can find a group for it. My experience has been that when gear was earned through progression of raids, it was very difficult to find groups for 'old' raid content if you came into the game later.
The fun is in the journey, not the goal. The journey is defined by challenge and change. That is the nature of a game, and more specifically of raiding. If challenge is not what you want, raiding is not for you.
Which is fine - I agree with that. What we seem to disagree on is what is considered 'challenge'. I consider not being able to see the content at all if I happen to come late to the game not 'challenging'; there's no 'challenge' in trying to find a pug group or guild to run you through old content so you can gear up.
If your goal is time efficiency, the WotLK model, with its badge grinds and endless pug-associated delays is far inferior to TBC.
Disagreed. I've seen all the content in WotLK, at the time when it was released, because of the emblem changes they made. I did not get that in TBC.
Opinions can be right or wrong. If you're simply refusing to challenge your own and instead leaving the discussion when your position becomes untenable, then you're guilty of debating in bad faith.
I'm willing to challenge my own opinion when I'm presented with evidence that it's wrong.
No one has shown that to me.
No one's shown me any reason to think that my experience in BC - where I never progressed beyond Zul'aman 'at-level' because of the way gear was set up - was a better system than WotLK, where I've experienced every tier of raid content as it was released.
The reason that I am leaving the discussion - again, now, you seemed to have an unclear reason as to why I'm leaving the discussion - is because all that we're doing is rehashing the same statements over and over again, and not presenting any sort of new evidence or data that might cause the other to alter their opinion.
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93865
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44284
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93865
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91278
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91278
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93865
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Post by
lonewarrior
Mine is "who ever said everyone is entitled to see endgame contents." This seems to have become the prevailing trend in this game...a sense of entitlement.
The developers said it, after seeing just how many players actually saw the end-game content (hint : very few).
It was either letting more people view the content, or just not doing it as awesome anymore. They're not going to spend much cash moneys on content nobody's going to do.
Then perhaps the fault is in how progression is implement.
Don't want to divert the subject...but I always thought that downing a boss should always have been a complete progression step. How many times has a boss been defeated and unusable contents dropped. Why couldn't they have gone to the token drop for all bosses..exchangeable for gear.
Also why not increase the drops in existing raids when higher level contents comes out.
So for instance Naxx 10/25 2/4drops..Ulduar comes out..Naxx drops go to 3/6..crusader comes out 4/8...etc This way we could continue progression through a raiding platform. People could learn raiding experience and not feel like they could never make it to endgame contents.
Look, I want everyone to see contents..but because they are good players..not because they want to see it. These are scripted fights..it's not that hard to perform well in them. Developing techniques comes from redundancy. You learn your class in vanilla dungeons...you hone it in heroics...you perfect it in raids. Now it's a hop..skip and jump to ICC where we see people who don't know when to move from in front of rotface or dps that leave people hanging on a bonespike because they are so intent on being first on the recount post.
So we give these same numnuts a 30% buff.....now they can survive long enough to clear LK. Now they have to wait around doing anal jokes until Blizz gives them a 30% buff in ruby sanctum.
I don't know..where do you draw the line. I guess this is why we debate about it. If we didn't like this game so much, we wouldn't care.
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91278
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304214
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