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So how about making WoW hard again?
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Post by
HoleofArt
Oh look, a post that may have started an actual discussion was completely ignored.
/shock.
Post by
Gnub
/sarcasm I wonder why?
Plus there's the fact that this is a "WoW is too easy QQ" thread.
GNUB LOCKAGE PLEASE.
Id suggest reading instead of crying
, Gnub has already been here. But if anyone is going to continue the topic, you all have to ignore Aestu's posts and just focus on other posters.
Indeed. The thread actually have to very good discussion - even since I was last here. I've actually enjoyed reading a lot of the points being brought forward, despite there still being alot of useless chatter going about. I mean, I could - in theory - delete all of that, but it's quite hard to distinguish some of it from being actual discussion, and just logs to the fire. If it does, however, turn even more bad - I'll be there in an instant and lock it down. But please, just for me, add in some good discussion, and let me - and everyone else - enjoy reading this. :)
Post by
93865
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Post by
44284
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Post by
93865
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44284
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Post by
HoleofArt
Oh look, it's paladingod, he couldn't resist and had to de-rail the topic further even though Aestu just made several good discussion points.
I think there's more creative and satisfying ways to achieve that goal than simply the "one person wipes the raid" mechanics that were so common in TBC
True, but it is an effective way to do it, even if it isn't creative or satisfying. If you look at many of the encounters in ICC, many of them can be done with half the raid dead. The only ones that require most (at least 20) of the raid to be alive are the ones that have incredibly strict enrage times - which you're right, is a rather bad way to do it.
If the encounters were more "Oh, you died to this _____, wipe it up, there's no hope" and people were continually having this event occur, then you would know who was terrible and who wasn't based on that. Crude? Yes. Effective? In the sense that you would immediately be able to weed out who needed to go, yes.
I think players should have more control over their own level of gear advancement. Being a passive player should be a handicap. I think crafted gear like Spellstrike/Spellfire was great because with those crafted pieces (which weren't trivially cheap nor impossibly expensive), plus some heroic/Kara gear, a player could have fun getting a respectable level of gear through many avenues, rather than just monotonously getting fed badges.
I agree with this. Having to put an effort to be able to raid should be a requirement. You shouldn't be able to be spoon-fed the last Tiers gear and be able to jump into end-game while doing absolutely nothing to deserve to be there.
If someone doesn't have the time to put into their gear, then they should find other avenues of the game to enjoy, say, PvP. Raiding should be something you work towards, not given.
Post by
Adamsm
At a fiveman level, consider how difficult rare spawns were to kill in early TBC, or how much teamwork it took to get through Auchenai Crypts or Mana Tombs or Mechanar. Besides just tuning, I think BRD/Strat/Scholo were great in that there were a lot of quirks and twists and turns and players had to communicate and share information to get on the same page and clear the content. You could run those instances dozens of times and still learn something new from some other player.Heh crap, actually found something I agree with you Aestu... hope the world don't end. But yeah, the Wrath heroics, even HoR(which is the hardest of them), was more of the rush type. Even end of the BC expansion, Shattered Halls and Black Morass could still devastate groups of 'uber' geared people.... and I've watched 80's go for some of the rare Outland mobs and still get their arses kicked even now. At least with the return of CC and the like in Cata, we should see some of the 'newber' players forced to learn more about their classes and what they are capable of doing; I mean, my 'main' is a hunter, and yet, I rarely if ever get to use my Freezing Trap arrow due to zerg rushes for things(was nice in Naxx to lob those things to get an instant proc of Lock N' Load).
Post by
HoleofArt
In case it wasn't clear enough, paladingod, go away. You aren't helping.
The only thing an actual competitive guild (being second on your server means @#$% if your top guild is *!@#) could break up over regarding loot, would probably be the GM ninja-ing Ashes or something along those lines. But you definitely won't see an entire guild break up because someone didn't get purples.
If the loot system was terrible, that holds more grounds, but an entire guild blowing up over the actual loot? Bull^&*!.
Post by
93865
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Post by
qwertydood
WoW was never difficult and never will be, simply because of how the game works. It's all numbers - there is no skilled involved in anything. You simply need to know how to bang on a keyboard in a certain sequence and have good enough gear. In PvP, if the gear is equivalent, it is simply rock-paper-scissors between the classes.
Anyone who disagrees is in denial, I'm sorry.
Post by
HoleofArt
If it isn't difficult, then why can some players do H LK 25m without the buff, and others can't do it with the buff? There's obviously some form of difficulty if events like these happen.
Post by
qwertydood
If it isn't difficult, then why can some players do H LK 25m without the buff, and others can't do it with the buff? There's obviously some form of difficulty if events like these happen.
Because they have better gear, better raid composition, or simply get lucky on one attempt.
Post by
93865
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Post by
HoleofArt
If it isn't difficult, then why can some players do H LK 25m without the buff, and others can't do it with the buff? There's obviously some form of difficulty if events like these happen.
Because they have better gear, better raid composition, or simply get lucky on one attempt.
Better gear? Better raid composition? Those don't even factor into it.
If you're on H LK, that means you're raid has everything it needs, and that your in 277 gear, if not mostly full BiS.
It's not like players who killed H LK had a magical stash of gear that allowed them to do more.
If you're 11/12 H, you're in one of those "top guilds" and have everything necessary to kill H LK.. and yet.. they don't. That is because it is
difficult
and
hard
.
Out of curiosity, qwerty, have you ever attempted H LK? If not, then how are you able to judge whether it's difficult or not? Even if you haven't, just taking a look at all the guilds stuck at 11/12 should tell you something, let alone any guild that has ever talked about the fight points out how challenging it was.
Post by
lonewarrior
It seems the prevailing thought from some corners is people shouldn't have to accept their own limitation or try to overcome them..."to hard..oh ok..lets make it easier so you don't feel bad about yourself" To each his own I guess.
Yeah, other than you being completely wrong about the developers' intentions, your point is valid. They wanted to make the entry level easier to achieve because the perception was that "if you want to raid, you need to have no life whatsoever" (even today, this perception remains, but among very few players as opposed to the entire gaming community before). WotLK was an exercise in this, but it didn't deliver very well. Instead of welcoming new players to the content, it trivialized the entry level to the point where everyone could get in, but weren't ready as players.
Sounds stupid, but Cataclysm should fix it. They're reintroducing raid concepts to 5-mans (which weren't present in WotLK) and this should help with player skill a bit. I maintain that one of the best tutorials and learning experiences I've ever had in gaming was in Virtua Fighter 4 : Evolution. Every single aspect of the game was carefully explained, with a way to practice them before heading on your own way. It didn't hold you by the hand, but it did teach you basic and advanced game concepts while allowing you to perform them by yourself and move forward at your own pace.
TBC didn't do it, leaving players to figure it out (or do research outside the game, which isn't exactly fun either). WotLK removed that aspect of the game. Cata seems like it will do it better - lower the gear requirement for entry in the 5-mans, but make the 5-mans harder to compensate. Players, in order to gear up for Cata raids, will need to get better at the game but will not need to pay too much in time nor in-game currency in order to properly do so. That sounds like the best of both worlds, really.
Ok the no life part...now that statement always got my goat up. Whenever i saw it posted in tradechat I would flame that person.
"In for a penny, in for a pound"..as the saying goes.
Whether you play for a minute a day or every damn minute of the day..your in the same boat.
The only people who could make that comment are those who don't play the game and they don't count then in any part of the WoW equation.
But people who do play WoW and make that comment are just too inept to be able to accomplish anything or really very stupid to be playing a game they aren't committed to and really have no life if they can't find something better to do ...otherwise if they weren't in the game for contents then they wouldn't ever make that comment. It's a pure cop out statement.
Life is choices...if you choose to play this game then that's your life. No better or worse then some couch potato sitting in front of his tv or sitting in a bar listening to some half drunken fool spitting bear foam nonsense into your ear. Now if you have a lady waiting for you then that's another thing :P
As for me being wrong on developers intention....maybe....show me your credentials to make that comment..otherwise just state your view..without skewing mine. Thank you.
Post by
lonewarrior
too all the reference between heroic LK and normal, let me just post my simple observation based on my server.
Guilds that were able to kill normal LK eventually did it in Hardmode as well. The additional mechanics involved didn't prove to be a hindrance of ability. It's really was just a numbers game.
When the stats on gear made it sustainable to do it..they did.
Otherwise I see many players unable to do normal LK, even though the gear stats say they can do it. To me hardmode was just a bone to throw out there to keep top players interested. I'm of the opinion that every boss should have just one mode...either your good enough to get the boss down or you go back to lower raids and improve...and that's the crux of this whole argument...because of the way the raid progression is currently set up...most players can't find anywhere else to improve.
Post by
HoleofArt
because of the way the raid progression is currently set up...most players can't find anywhere else to improve.
Most? Your post makes it sound like a ton of people have H LK down because they could get regular. That isn't so. If that was true, then why are so many guilds stuck (and disbanding) at 11/12H?
Also, I think there's only 360 something guilds with him killed. That's such a ridiculously small amount of people.
Post by
93865
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Post by
129046
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