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LFD - Did it single handedly destroy the games Community?

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Post by Pwntiff

The solution to problems concerning PuGs is not getting in a guild.

You lost me there, care to explain you not getting in a guild will help you avoid pugs?

He's saying that getting in a guild is not the solution concerning PuGs.

Post by soccergenius

LFD - Did it single handedly destroy the games Community? How? All LFD has done is expedite queue times. There are jerks on other servers just like on any server. Maybe you get more jerks/per hour, but the % doesn't change just because you're playing with people on other servers, unless your server only has the happiest, most polite people on Earth.

Not a single LFD bashing thread has any logic or good reasoning behind it, only anecdotal, subjective opinions. I wonder how many of these threads are started by people who didn't play when WotLK was new or even before, when getting a group could be a royal pain. LFD has been one of Blizzard's greatest successes with WoW.

Post by Gnub

Getting to know the people I'm guilded with (or perhaps other big guilds on the server) is plenty for me, can't really see the need for the rest - general good manners works fine for that.Pug raids bring out the worst in people, cross-realm LFD brings out the worst in people, and you want to rely on good manners in cross-realm raids? /gigglesnort
I'm talking about myself, and how I want to know people. I don't need to know people I might play with once or twice - I get by that with my good manners. If they are tards, then let them.

How come? You'd still be interacting with alot of other people, no matter if they're on your realm or not.

Without the ability to friend people and seek them out to group with them again, those interactions lose a lot of their substance.
For some, that's how it works, but I simply believe in "act nice, and nice things will come to you". I know it sounds incredibly gullible and naive - but yeah, the hope for humanity never stops, right? :)

Post by prollfin

The solution to problems concerning PuGs is not getting in a guild.

You lost me there, care to explain you not getting in a guild will help you avoid pugs?

Because being in a guild doesn't mean that you don't raid in PuGs from time to time. The advise given implies that people complaining about PuGs are poor bastards who are forced to pug because they don't have a guild. And that's wrong. Actually, a lot of people I meet in PuGs are in guilds - many of them in decent ones. They still do PuGs - for different reasons.

I myself am in a decent guild. We raid together. I still join PuGs from time to time. With alts or whenever I missed a guild run. And I guess I like the company of strangers from time to time. I like to meet people - not only the ones I already know.

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Post by prollfin

What is this, a job?

Funny thing is, back in vanilla, forums where full of threads from people complaining about not getting their items in spite of having done a raid every lockout period for months and having gazillions of DKP. To me, RNG has always been part of the fun, the game-part.

Back then, when people said: "I'd rather have tokens of some kind, something to work for. I want to know that two months from now, I'm gonna have my item", I used to reply: "What do you want this game to be like? A job?" Nowadays, we have that. Play 50 heroic dungeons and you'll be ready for raiding ICC! Go for it already, Prollfin the Patient!

I don't like it. I remember a time when you played a dungeon because you wanted to play it - and you weren't penalized for not wanting to play it. Today, because of the fact that everybody can obtain a full set of 232+ epic gear by repeatedly pressing two buttons, people of course expect you to do it.

I don't really think that the majority of people enjoys LFD badge grinding. So basically, thousands of people spend hundreds of hours on playing "content" they don't like - for reasons that wouldn't have existed without the tool. And they even praise their oppressor for making everything so easy and comfortable.

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Post by Varaconn

LFD was enormously destructive to the game and anyone who understands this game saw it coming.

I agree with you about how people act on LFD, how people have had accountability completely removed, but I'm also going to have to incorporate a point from Prolifin that I not only agree with, but that is another cause for this whole decay.

I don't agree that the LFD tool did this on its own. I have met perfectly civil people on there -- just like I met complete jerks doing the daily within my realm pre-LFD. What caused this current state of asshattery on the LFD is people themselves (despite the lack of accountability, most good people are still good people, and likewise for the jerks) and the current state of the top level, pre-raid endgame.

People act this way because, unfortunately, the game does, indeed, kind of feel like a job right now. You hit 80, and you want to raid. Ok, you need XX number of badges. Go hit the heroics. Not only is that number discouraging from my point of view (I consider myself to be one of the non-jerks on LFD, or so I hope, lol) but I'm sure everyone else just wants to get this done.

From another point, you have the people who are just doing the heroics for their frost badges. Doing their errands, or chores, if you will. I, personally, loathe this. I resent doing heroics on my mains now because I feel like I have to. I'm sure plenty others feel the same. (Though, some are more vocal in venting their frustration, where I choose to simply be the quiet one.)

And finally, you have the overgeared people that trivialize the content. Unfortunately, with any reasonable amount of gear, heroics are just a complete joke, and it simply encourages facerolling the dungeon and getting it done in less than 10 minutes. If heroics were still challenging, I'm not convinced people would have developped the same jerk attitude. If you wipe because something's difficult, that attitude won't get anywhere, people don't work together and perform for people they don't like, and things would never get done.

It's a rich tapestry causing the problems in LFD right now. The fact that there are still nice people in there is proof enough.

I'm also looking forward to when Cataclysm hits and heroics won't be faceroll anymore -- the number of broken groups will probably skyrocket until all the punks smarten the hell up.

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Post by prollfin

I think the problem is the dungeons themselves not the tool. If Blizzard took a little more time to consider whether or not the content that they're putting in a certain dungeon is fun and interesting I'm sure ppl would be a lot nicer and happier while doing them.

The dungeons are fine. Remember the first three times you did Utgarde Keep? Boring? I don't think so. Nowadays, when I look at my character's statistics tab on the armory, I see something like "Ingvar the Plunderer (Heroic Utgarde Keep): 47". Every dungeon gets boring at some point. Of course, the Ingvar-number isn't the only 40+ number on my armory.

I don't think I've run any of the TBC heroics 47 times (sadly, most of that was before patch 3.0, so I can't really tell). It's more like 20 times the most - for few specific dungeons.

The real difference today is both the dungeon tool and the badge system. Wait! There used to be a badge system back in TBC, too! Don't you remember, stupid? That's true, but:

TBC heroics were longer, more difficult and less accessible.
The pool of players to make heroic groups from was very limited by both attunements (keys) and the need to actively communicate in order to find a group.

So basically, you couldn't steamroll-grind for dozens of badges, Badges of Justice were much rarer than Emblems of Triumph are today. At the same time, TBC badge loot was very expensive. 100 badges for a chestpiece, 150 badges for a weapon. But getting "full badge gear" was not only something that could hardly be accomplished within a reasonable time-frame, for many classes, wearing full badge gear didn't even make sense at all - because most items were designed to fill a certain gap, as most were missing something important.

That's why "gearing up" with heroics and badge loot didn't matter too much in the days of TBC. That's why people focused on playing what they wanted to play rather than on what they felt they had to. But of course, it's part of the reason why other players didn't get anywhere.

With the new badge system, the whole concept of gearing up by repeatedly working through content that gets less interesting every time you press your queue-button gets one of the game's big imperatives. It's only fifty dungeons to get a full set of decent gear - it's easy to get groups - it merely takes 15 minutes to reach the boss - you can almost sleep through it. In the end, they could even hand over your 232 epics when you ding 80 - but that way, you wouldn't spend hundreds of hours on doing something that's not only obsolete (unless playing the same content designed for fresh 80s over, over, over, over and over again is what you call fun), but bringing up more problems community-wise than it was supposed to solve. It's drowsy - and by the time people finally reach their goal, the paradise called "endgame raiding", they've already fallen asleep.

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Post by xaratherus

Example - When Ulduar is released, Naxx bosses drop 2x badges compared to before.
Then, when ToC is released, Ulduar bosses drop 2x badges of Conquest, and Naxx bosses now drop 4x badges of Valor.
Then, when ICC is released, ToC bosses drop 2x Triumph, Ulduar drops 4x Conquest, and Naxx bosses drop 8x.

Of course, in Cata this will all be moot, since emblems are going away. However, the idea is still sound, in that causing the old "top end" raid to award more Heroism points would entice people to run them.

The problem is striking a balance between allowing more casual players to gear up by running heroics, and allowing more "hardcore" players to gear up quickly by running prior-tier raid content. I think that in one of the dev blogs they noted they would be putting a cap on the amount of Heroism and Valor points you could earn in a day, and that might just be the solution.

Post by lonewarrior

I don't think LFD has changed anything...if someone is a jerk in your random..then they are a jerk on their server too. No one picks and chooses when to be an idiot..they just are.

For most players randoms have become a frost run only process..the quicker.. the better.
A guild is still the best place to look for runs if you want more emblems/interaction.

Post by Varaconn

I'm also looking forward to when Cataclysm hits and heroics won't be faceroll anymore -- the number of broken groups will probably skyrocket until all the punks smarten the hell up.

Heroics will be faceroll when you outgear them - even in Cataclysm. GC has stated this. I just hope they don't give people incentive to run heroics on their over-geared toons.

I specifically meant when Cata hits, and for the couple patches until gear is high enough to faceroll. We're looking at a good 6-7 months, anyway.

Post by RagingNerd

I think the LFD tool has contributed to a decline in community on realms for running dungeons. Before the tool was introduced, you were forced to find people to run dungeons with on your realm and got to know who the good players were and who were the people you wanted to avoid. This would help to expand your friends list or maybe even get you into a decent guild and you got know the people of your server. This is not a problem for my main toon. I have an alt character that I am currently playing and farming emblems with by running random dungeons. I did this during the Burning Crusade as well, towards the end of the expansion. This is the opposite faction of my main toon and I don't know anyone at all. I've found it harder to make friends on characters I don't play as much when the faction or server is different from my main since the LFD tool has been introduced. I didn't have this issue during Burning Crusade when playing alts. I'd have to think this would also be a problem for new players and people who don't every day or are very casual.

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