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Draenei offical swept under the rug..
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Post by
Rohl
I know for a fact that the lore from Blizzard's manuals contradict each other, I don't have my manuals on hand, so if you could point me to the exact words I'll highlight the phrases that contradict each other.
As for the Eredar not being involved in the corruption of Sargeras, this is true because the Eredar were politely locked away from the rest of the world by the Pantheon because they were too evil. Sargeras recruited them and the other race, I don't know why I can't remember it, to be in his army, the Eredar were the commanders (Archimonde, Kil'Jaedan, and Velen). And the other race, I think just demons were the foot soldiers.
Don't worry this will get tied together at the end, and if not, sorry, I ramble. I don't even know why I argue/debate with people I'm terribad at it.
As for a solid source on the Draenei being completely eradicated, I know I read it somewhere, but I really don't care enough to try and find it so fine, you're right. The lore has never ever said in the history of Blizzard that the Draenei were killed off.
As for Draenei being poorly developed, I can think of a race that. in my opinion, has worse lore than the Draenei and they've been playable since the beginning, the Gnomes.
I don't play Alliance all the much, but I do enjoy myself some lore now and then, and I don't see much concerning the Gnomes.
As for the part about the Eredar being evil and commanders in the Burning Legion if Blizzard could invent the Naaru to save the Draenei then why not save the Lost Ones instead of having to create a backstory that is pretty full of holes.
Edit: I think I read about the Draenei extermination in a WoW book. I'll try to find the title.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Aye; I want to know what happened with the Ashtongue, the Kurenai and others come Cata; considering all the new Elemental threats, the Broken of Outland should be on Azeroth helping to shore up some of the crumbling walls and the like(yes, it's a play on the strength and power of the Broken).
The Broken of Outland should balance Azeroth's elemental forces? What? Aren't they completely different (but similar in some aspects)?
Heh, I just mean in general, they should be helping the Draenei and the Earthen Ring.
As for the Eredar not being involved in the corruption of Sargeras, this is true because the Eredar were politely locked away from the rest of the world by the Pantheon because they were too evil. Sargeras recruited them and the other race, I don't know why I can't remember it, to be in his army, the Eredar were the commanders (Archimonde, Kil'Jaedan, and Velen). And the other race, I think just demons were the foot soldiers.The Eredar and the Dreadlords were the most evil vile creatures that Sargeras had ever encountered, and made him doubt his furor of fulfilling the Titans mandate to remove all the chaos from the universe. That doubt changed him and made him realize that Chaos was how existence was meant to be and Order was the failure; once he made that jump, he shattered their prisons and freed the two most vile races, who pledged themselves to him. Since the retcon, they've been changed to Sargeras corrupting them; playing off vanity and lust for power to corrupt Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. Also, fyi dude... Velen was never mentioned till the Draenei retcon; up to that point, it was just Archi and KJ doing the evil commander thing.
But since the Draenei change; Blizzard finally has a reason to explain the mass armies of the Legion: Worlds that fell during the Legion's chase of the Draenei either were destroyed or corrupted into the ranks of the demons, similar to what happened to the orcs on Draenor.
not save the Lost Ones instead of having to create a backstory that is pretty full of holes.Because the Lost ones were completely bat &*!@ insane and hate all other races; they even hate their fellow Draenei and Broken, and attempt to kill them as well. So yeah... no chance of that race ever joining up, as the corruption of Draenor drove them insane and transformed them into the forms we see today... which proves that the original idea of the Draenei were always there, as the Broken are a mutation of them after all.
I don't play Alliance all the much, but I do enjoy myself some lore now and then, and I don't see much concerning the Gnomes.So... you didn't quest in Northrend... at all I'm guessing?
Post by
Rohl
Ahhh, that must be what I was trying to remember. And the retcon must be what I was remembering for contradicting what it said before.
I quested as Horde, my highest Alliance is 60. I remember the mecha-gnome stuff, but I didn't think it was all that much, seemed to revolve around the Dwarves more.
Post by
Adamsm
The Mechagnomes are the original gnomish race, same as the Earthen are the original dwarven one; the gnomes learning about that is supposedly tied into them finally picking up priests in Cata, as they are finally interested in investigating their past. As for the gnomes themselves; allies of the dwarves for 400 years, good friends with the humans as of the second war, and decided as a whole, that the Gnomer trogg invasion rated less on the threat scale then dealing with the Scourge during the Third War; they have quite a bit of lore to them, same as the other races; you just need to look for it instead of just assuming everything about them.
Post by
Rohl
Hm, I guess I should, I wish there was a better place to read up on lore than Wowwiki, it's so damn ad infested
Post by
Adamsm
Heh, well, there are a few good guides over in the L&RP forum,
History and Lore behind the main Races
,
History and Lore behind the other races
,
Lore behind the Classes
, and
the new race/class combos
. And yeah, the ads get annoying on Wowwiki, but it is the best place for lore, with the main Blizzard site and the Know Your Lore section of wow.com good as well.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
Hm, I guess I should, I wish there was a better place to read up on lore than Wowwiki, it's so damn ad infested
Make an account and log in, you shouldn't see the ads anymore.
This ^^ account making is easy and you don't need to edit.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
As for the Eredar not being involved in the corruption of Sargeras, this is true because the Eredar were politely locked away from the rest of the world by the Pantheon because they were too evil. Sargeras recruited them and the other race, I don't know why I can't remember it, to be in his army, the Eredar were the commanders (Archimonde, Kil'Jaedan, and Velen). And the other race, I think just demons were the foot soldiers.Dreadlords (notorious manipulators, and far from being "just foot soldiers") were involved since the beginning.
As for people
believing
that the eredar were part of the problem from day one? Well, what's Kil'jaeden's sobriquet again?
As for a solid source on the Draenei being completely eradicated, I know I read it somewhere, but I really don't care enough to try and find it so fine, you're right. The lore has never ever said in the history of Blizzard that the Draenei were killed off.There was a statement from an orc character in Lord of the Clans, IIRC. As characters are generally not infallible, it should be considered anecdotal in-universe.
As for Draenei being poorly developed, I can think of a race that. in my opinion, has worse lore than the Draenei and they've been playable since the beginning, the Gnomes.
I don't play Alliance all the much, but I do enjoy myself some lore now and then, and I don't see much concerning the Gnomes.They had the whole Gnomeregan business in vanilla, and a surprisingly deep exploration of their Titan connection in Wrath. Not bad for a race that's often dismissed as comic relief.
As for the part about the Eredar being evil and commanders in the Burning Legion if Blizzard could invent the Naaru to save the Draenei then why not save the Lost Ones instead of having to create a backstory that is pretty full of holes.Now, see, that's just the thing: When you say that the backstory is "full of holes," you could either mean that it's sparse (which is true and is a problem, but will only be solved by the race getting
more
lore)...or you
could
be jumping on the BC QQ-train about how draenei are "plot holes."
The Eredar and the Dreadlords were the most evil vile creatures that Sargeras had ever encountered, and made him doubt his furor of fulfilling the Titans mandate to remove all the chaos from the universe. That doubt changed him and made him realize that Chaos was how existence was meant to be and Order was the failure; once he made that jump, he shattered their prisons and freed the two most vile races, who pledged themselves to him. Since the retcon, they've been changed to Sargeras corrupting them; playing off vanity and lust for power to corrupt Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. Also, fyi dude... Velen was never mentioned till the Draenei retcon; up to that point, it was just Archi and KJ doing the evil commander thing.
But since the Draenei change; Blizzard finally has a reason to explain the mass armies of the Legion: Worlds that fell during the Legion's chase of the Draenei either were destroyed or corrupted into the ranks of the demons, similar to what happened to the orcs on Draenor.Indeed. Despite all of the people screeching about how it "ruined the lore," I'd go so far as to say that it actually
strengthened
the story.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
I don't think the Draenei, as we see today, were ever even hinted as this before BC - the only ones we had ever seen were the Broken.You'd be wrong. Although the draenei being uncorrupted eredar was a new development, a blue had mentioned—before BC was even
announced
, in response to a question about Garona—that the Broken had mutated from a form that humans would find "beautiful." (And yes, it
is
canon that draenei are attractive to human eyes.)
And even if that's not case, their implementation was harsh enough to generate the feeling that they were ''pulled out of thin air'', hence the early BC QQ.I'm not sure what you mean by "harsh." I'm sure it could be argued that the implementation of
any
new race is "harsh," especially if an existing race gets shorted in the new one's favor.
However, if you're trying to imply that the Exodar should have crashed before BC, draenei "ambassadors" should have been patched in early, and there should have been quest chains? I'm inclined to agree.
(Captcha was "confidence deodorant." Is that a new brand?)
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
However, if you're trying to imply that the Exodar should have crashed before BC, draenei "ambassadors" should have been patched in early, and there should have been quest chains? I'm inclined to agree.
I agree as well. It makes me excited for Operation Gnomeregon and the Echo Isles one (so I can't remember it's name and I play Alliance. So shoot me), to get the Cataclysm mood in apart from all the Twilight's Hammer stuff.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
What I mean by a ''harsh implementation'' of the race are a few things that happened: First, only a portion (or all of them, doesn't change much) of the minority (Lorenerds) of the gaming community already knew anything of the Draenei so no one even had contact with this race. This becomes a problem because ''beautiful'' doesn't even come close to describing their appearance and simply doesn't hint at their culture or history at all. Or even hints that the Draenei, as they once were, even still existed.It was known that they were magically-inclined, inquisitive, and built "crude" cities. While I wouldn't call Shattrath "crude," it is rather blocky and monumental.
And actually, the survival of an uncorrupted remnant had been hinted obliquely at (and extensively guessed by the fanbase). Sure, the most common fan speculation as to their appearance was "tall, pretty, green-tinted humans," but they weren't as completely out-of-nowhere as detractors would have us believe.
On the other hand there are many other races that everyone were already in contact with and that would be as good addition to the Alliance's race choices as the Draenei (arguable, of course): Furbolgs, Worgen, High Elves and Pandaren comes to mind.Furbolgs, maybe.
The playable worgen—much as people don't like to admit it—took at least as much retconning as the draenei (from extradimensional beings who used mainly shadow magic, to a sect of druids who went feral) to work as a playable race. High elves were unlikely with the simultaneous addition of the blood elves. Pandaren had not appeared in-game in any way, shape, or form at that point.
And then comes the whole nostalgia of ''Warcraft turning into Starcraft''. In fact, I could see the Draenei and their interdimensional ship becoming targets of QQers who felt that their ''beloved warcraft universe'' was threatened (alright people do dislike change, but outland was one hell of a change don't you think?).The problem here is
not
the material itself. The problem here is fandumb.
Naaru constructs are less technological than all of the clockpunk and steampunk with which gnomes and goblins work, and certainly no
more
so than the Dark Portal. (The next time someone claims that a teleporting/levitating castle is an invasive s-f element, I will sing the song that ends the earth.)
Metzen even had to compare that situation with how, a long time ago, ''dwarves with firearms'' also felt out of place in the game's lore.I rest my case.
And lastly comes the whole ''Draenei Twist''. Sure its a pitful retcon in a part of lore that we had almost no contact and hardly changed anything about how the Burning Legion acts but it surely served to fuel the QQ even more.And yet, it's the biggest thing you'll hear people complaining about in regards to draenei—surpassing even the aforementioned fandumb. Apparently, draenei "ruined the lore," are "walking plot holes," and so on and so forth. That's people focusing specifically
on
the retcon and blowing it hugely out of proportion.
Compare Draenei and Blood Elves to the Worgen and Goblins. There was QQ about all of them, but the second pair was QQ'ed at because of misconceptions while the first one was as well, their integration led to substancial changes in their lore. Therefore they led to more QQ.*Again: worgen involve
equally
substantial changes in their lore. And yet, people squee over them and
deny the existence
of any such retcons.
*I'm showing disregard to the kind of QQ like ''Blood elves r gay'' and ''Worgan r furries dey belong on hordez''.And rightly so. Complaints like that are also fandumb and
should
be disregarded, much like claims that worgen are going to attract Twihards (as opposed to just drawing
paranoia
about Twihards, but that's another story).
Post by
Alliari
In my opinion, the biggest retcon they did with the Draenei was 'Who corrupted who?' In the original story, it was the Eradar who corrupted Sageras, in the new one, it was most likely the Dreadlords who corrupted Sageras, who in turn, corrupted the Eradar.the rest of the story was just kinda filling in the missing pieces to explain the race.
Post by
Adamsm
In my opinion, the biggest retcon they did with the Draenei was 'Who corrupted who?' In the original story, it was the Eradar who corrupted Sageras, in the new one, it was most likely the Dreadlords who corrupted Sageras, who in turn, corrupted the Eradar.the rest of the story was just kinda filling in the missing pieces to explain the race.
Eredar and Dreadlords together, not the Eredar alone in the original tale.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
In my opinion, the biggest retcon they did with the Draenei was 'Who corrupted who?'Actually, that wasn't the "biggest" retcon; it was
the
retcon. The rest, as you've pointed out, was embellishment, not revision. In the original story, it was the Eradar who corrupted Sageras, in the new one, it was most likely the Dreadlords who corrupted Sageras, who in turn, corrupted the Eradar.the rest of the story was just kinda filling in the missing pieces to explain the race.Adams called it: the dreadlords have been involved from day one.
Post by
icritmypants
This was so long I decided to only read four pages before just saying that the Draenei didn't get much new lore in Wrath, which wasn't very fair. But I do like that my race, orc, did kind of WTFPWN them...even though they were peaceful. Something about a giant group of orcs charging a bunch of draenei while infernals drop from the sky is kind of cool.
...I want to do that, even if we lose.
Post by
Adamsm
But I do like that my race, orc, did kind of WTFPWN themWith the help of Demons, Fel magic, and the Ogres; without those, who knows how the war would have ended.
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