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Sylvanas' Fatal Mistake
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Post by
Skreeran
Alright, so I’ve looked at
the transcript between Garrosh and Sylvanas
. Long story short, Sylvanas has gathered freed Val’kyr to her banner, and with them, she has gained the ability to raise new Forsaken.
First, let me say that I appreciate, in a sense, her intentions. With the Lich King’s death, many of the former Scourge will be in the same position as the Forsaken were when they first broke free. I find it very compassionate (from a certain point of view) for her to offer them a home and a cause. Perhaps she is gathering them for purely pragmatic purposes, but I at least approve of her actions in ‘adopting’ these lost, confused individuals.
Her other major action was showing that a corpse can be revived into a Forsaken. I understand her reasoning with this, too. It must feel terrible, cause one's heart to ache, to know that you cannot have children, and your race--all your people--will whither away and be forgotten. To realize that your line is on a dead end course, and that not only will you die as an individual, but as a culture, would be seen as the Lich King’s final blow. Not only did he turn them into monsters, not only did her take away their ability to feel warm by a fire, to feel love, to know happiness, not only did he ruin everything that they had, his final blow was to completely annihilate their ability to move through history as a people. They would have no children. Once they were dead, that was it. No more Forsaken. No one to tell their stories.
I can imagine that this thought is part of what drives Forsaken into the state that we see them. Hopeless. Angry. Hurt. It is not just that the Lich King twisted their bodies and minds, but that he made them a race with no destiny. It would feel pointless. Not only was what happened to them unfair, but it was pointless too. Faced with this prospect, the Forsaken, unable to feel joy, or appreciate beauty, or enjoy unlife, would force the great majority of them into becoming nihilists.
Mortality can cause nihilism. Facing one’s own death can lead one to see life as the short gap between two periods of non-existence. However, most humans do not reach this conclusion. We are encouraged to appreciate the short period of living that we are offered, and enjoy it while it lasts. However, the Forsaken are physically/psychologically/magically (take your pick) unable to take pleasure in living,
precisely because they are not living.
While humans can stave off their fears of mortality by remembering that the human race will continue on without them, that they have contributed to the great cycle of life, the Forsaken find themselves trapped on a dead end street of history.
Some of these Forsaken endeavor to take the whole world with them. They follow Sylvanas’ banner, hoping to impact history in a way that no one will ever beat, by destroying all life on Azeroth. They will have sealed their name in the course of time for all eternity.
Unable to take comfort in the future, unable to enjoy the present, and with little to live for, these Forsaken care very little about the world. They will kill and destroy as they need, because it has no value to them. They’d hardly get to enjoy the world for very long anyway. They do not care if they live or die.
This outlook permeates Forsaken psychology. The entire philosophy of the Forgotten Shadow is based on bending the universe to serve you. If an ancient forest is in your way, destroy it. They do not see value in anything. Not their own lives. Not their allies lives. Not their enemies lives. Not the lives of the creatures that make the forest their home. If it does not serve you, change it into a form that will.
From their perspective, when asked “Should we kill the humans?” they have might as well answer “Why not?” because human life has no value to them. In fact, by killing humans and eradicating their entire race from history, they are moving toward the ultimate goal of taking all life on Azeroth down with them. Mind you that not every Forsaken feels this way, but with the Lich King dead, and lacking a purpose, it is quite plausible to say that many Forsaken feel this way.
However, give the Forsaken a means to reproduce, and you can pull back a bit of their humanity. Once again, the Forsaken race is invested in the future. The desire to multiply one’s species is one of the basest desires we have. Blocking this further crushes hope for the Forsaken. Returning it at least gives the Forsaken race a future. This fact does not remove the desire to kill the humans from them, but now with the ability to raise the dead as their own, they not only are able to add to their numbers, but they shape the non-useful humans into useful friends. I can appreciate Sylvanas’ motivations in raising new dead.
However, she is overlooking one key detail. When the Forsaken were first killed, they were killed by the Scourge, raised by the Lich King, to add to his undead race, to destroy and turn the entire world.
How will humans react to being killed by the Forsaken, raised by Sylvanas, to add to her undead race, to destroy and turn the entire world?
It seems wise to assume that they will react in the same way that the Forsaken reacted to being raised by the Scourge. Far from being friends or allies, they would come to resent those responsible for their condition, just as the Forsaken did. The Forsaken will not be making friends, but enemies.
This is Sylvanas’ fatal mistake. She is becoming the thing that destroyed her. In an attempt to save the future of her race, she is dooming herself to the same fate as her predecessor. She will not find a unified Forsaken after this, but will instead found a new generation of undead out to destroy their creator.
Also, I'm very tired, and so if this is not very well organized or seems too stream of consciousness, just bear with me.
Post by
Sigmafel
I will be extremely surprised, with what Blizzard is setting up for Sylvanas, that she makes it unscathed to the next expansion.
To be entirely honest, it took pre-Cata to turn me from a Sylvanas fan into a hater.
Post by
Interest
Well written Skreeran.
Really.
I can't say much more than that.
And looking at the article. Garrosh showing profound logic towards that situation? Unpossible...
Post by
denjerre
I would honestly not be surprised if she turned into a 'Lich Queen'. Many have been speculating Garrosh will become a killable raid boss, but I actually see Sylvanas taking that spot.
Post by
HiVolt
Well written Skreeran.
I agree.
And your thoughts on the implication of raising new undead minions is very well conceived. Perhaps there is a cycle developing?
Those that are raised for the Forsaken are no doubt going to have a single, cohesive society, much like the Forsaken(if they indeed do turn against them). If these new Forsaken aren't wiped out, along with the current versions, it stands to reason that they'd fall under a banner of apathetic hatred and vengeance, just like the originals did with Sylvanas.
As they crusade to destroy their creators, they will search for ways to raise new members into their ranks, thus creating a very dangerous cycle.
Post by
Morec0
GO SYLVANAS!
Forsaken Lore has always been one of my personal favorite, and the spoiler was awsome. I litterally had to take a double take when I read "Val'kyr" just because it seemed so... impossible. And yes, Den, Garrosh is showing logic, and he's shown he's not willing to do anything to crush the Alliance (then again, this particular "anything" is the raising of the dead, much like the Scourge). This logic and apparent disdain for lawless warfare (can't think of the actual word for it). There two main good things to come from this:
We havn't seen the last of the Vrykul (if you consider Val'kyr 'vrykul') or, possibly, the other intelligent Scourge races. Who knows, maybe we'll see the return of Kel'thuzad somewhere (after all, his phylactery is still out there, to the best of my knowledge).
It opens the question: what will become of Sylvanas (again?). Will she fall to the same level the Lich King sank to, or will she manage to avoid that pit because of her "alligence" to the Horde?
Post by
Rankkor
damn good job skree :P
and I agree, one thing is to find a way to procreate, and another to actually take the life of another and ruin it to preserve your own civilization.
if these val'kir raised individuals somehow have their own free will, then why the hell should they work for the person responsible for killing them, and making them monsters?
that would be like Gilneans suddenly working for arugal (and I'm not saying it's not posible, I'm guessing a few of them will)
Forsakens were turned into monsters by the lich king, and they hated him for it, then sylvannas freed them from the lich king's chains, and they loved her for it.
now we have new forsakens being reanimated by the val'kyrs under sylvannas, these new forsakens will hate her for it, and then when a new reanimated "hero" of the forsaken stages a coup to kill the tyrant and free these new forsakens, these new forsakens will love this hero.
I see a cicle repeating here. First there's Sylvannas directly disobeying the warchief by trowing barrels of plage on gilneas, despite the fact that both thrall and garrosh said NO MORE PLAGE.
and now we have her raising her fallen into unlife.............
Garrosh Snaped a dude's neck on stonetalon when this dude went behind his back and bombed an alliance civilian base (seriously this is perhaps the first moment in wich I've actually respected garrosh =O and that's a big bonus, it's like when varian let Saurfang claim the body of his son, First time I respected varian) if Garrosh did that to an orc who bombed a base, what will he do to a woman who used lethal gas on an entire nation behind is back, having recieved direct orders to NOT doit, and then using val'kyrs to raise the fallen as new undead?
then there's the little chance of sylvannas using mind-controll magic to make these new forsaken love her, but again, same fridge logic as I said on the general thread, that would take the free will away, and these new forsaken would be no diferent than regular undead, mindless.
and ALL forsaken HATE with an intence zeal every single mindless undead. Being forsaken means being undead but having the capacity to choose who do you owe your allegiance. (just as some forsaken left sylvannas to join the argent crusade, some staged a coup against her, and some follow her)
if she forces her people to serve her using mind-controll (she does have the shadow-priests of the cult of forgotten shadow, who are esentially "mind-rapers" who can controll the masses with little effort) then she really is no diferent from the tyrant she worked so hard to defeat, she is no diferent from the monster who ravaged her land and turned her and her people into the very same freaks she is now creating.
ohh the irony........
Post by
UrAgahn
I KNEW that high-ranking Scourge would not just vanish. And considering the fact that two powerful San'Layn princes - Atherann and Theraldis - are MIA, who knows what will become of them? And vrykul's allegiance is still, I think, an open question.
Post by
Morec0
damn good job skree :P
and I agree, one thing is to find a way to procreate, and another to actually take the life of another and ruin it to preserve your own civilization.
Indeed, but what if the Forsaken weren't the one's to kill them? I quote from a Doctor Who episode when I say "its recycling" (can't remember the episode name, but it had something to do with gas-based aliens and Charels @#$%ens, for those of you who might know). Simply taking the dead of one race to give life to another.
Post by
Rankkor
Indeed, I am a HUGE fan of the San'Layn and I hope some of them survived and joined the knights of the ebon blade or the forsaken, or the blood elves of silvermoon.
I know the odds are low, but meh, let a man dream will ya?
Post by
Adamsm
If the San'layn survived, they would be doing their best to continue causing trouble... I mean, there vampires, can't see any group willingly taking them in and trusting them. As for Sylvanas.... like I said in another thread; I'm seeing another Battle for the Undercity, with a different last kill...
Post by
92105
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Morec0
She HAS Necromancers. She has ALWAYS had Necromancers. Abominations don't reanimate themselves!
The only reason she needs Val'kyr is to make it painfully clear how evul she is now. Goddamn Forsaken.
Well, I think that the Val'kyr are far more powerful necromancers - why else would the Lich King use them so much more then actual necromancers? - not to mention their ability to fly. Besides, Sylvanas takes freed undead under her wing, this is another demonstration of that.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
She HAS Necromancers. She has ALWAYS had Necromancers. Abominations don't reanimate themselves!
The only reason she needs Val'kyr is to make it painfully clear how evul she is now. Goddamn Forsaken.
care to point them out?
Abominations aren't reanimated via necromancy, they are reanimated via science (ever watched or read Frankenstein?) they are stitched body parts sewn togheter via surgery and reanimated by those tesla coils and the like, this is why they aren't that smart (ok they're dumber than rocks).
notice how you must manually give the abominations their instructions or else they just stand looking dumb, unlike reanimated ghouls or skeletons who obey the orders of their necromancers telepatically.
the forsakens HATE mindless undead, in order to be a forsaken you must have a mind of your own, your own free will, your own mind to then choose if you will follow the dark lady or not (and most who chose not to are usually slain :S) so no, She nas NEVER had any necromancers (and again feel free to point one if they exist)
the reason she needs val'kyrs is presicely because the reanimation magic they use is much more potent than that of a necromancer, they can turn dead back to life, but with their minds and their will intanct.
why do you think the vrykul society is split in 2?
there's the the Ymirjar, those who have proven themselves to the lich king and are acended into an elite cadre of the strongest in their society, and then you have the vargul, those who are deemed unworthy when they lose the tournament at valhallas, they die and are ressurected as Vargul, ugly rotting undead, but still with a free mind of their own, so taht they can hate what they've become.
these vargul can hate what they are because they weren't raised with standard necromantic magic wich destroys the soul, and the mind and leaves the subject a rotten husk willing to obey orders without question.
the Val'kyr resurect using Rune Magic, wich works diferent than the standard black magic, so the mind and soul of the subject is preserved, in this state the subject is still capable of feeling, of having a mind.
it's quite silly of your part to think that the ONLY reason she wanted the val'kyr to "make it painfully clear how
evul
she is" considering that the forsaken are all former scourge undeads who regained their free will.
with the lich king dead, some of the smarter forms of undeads are effective imidietly lose ends running about with no clear objective other than continued existance, these free undead will likely join the only 2 organizations who could posibly embrace them.
Some will join the forsaken, some will Join the Knights of the ebon blade.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Written lore also says that the Forsaken captured Scourge Necromancers and forced them into their service, they don't seem to have been included in WoW so they were probably forgotten though.That, and according to some of the RP Books, the Scarlet Crusade hunted for the necromancers to wipe them out, to keep the Forsaken from swelling their ranks.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Written lore also says that the Forsaken captured Scourge Necromancers and forced them into their service, they don't seem to have been included in WoW so they were probably forgotten though.That, and according to some of the RP Books, the Scarlet Crusade hunted for the necromancers to wipe them out, to keep the Forsaken from swelling their ranks.
They had to say specifically that the Scarlet Crusaders hunted Necromancers? I though they hunted just about anything that moved heh
Well, in a group of undead, the necromancers were usually the big targets =P.
Post by
Rankkor
Sylvanas and the Dark Rangers wield Necromancy.
no they don't, what they wield is dark magic, and dark magic =/= necromancy.
next we know, some people will call the warlocks and shadow-priests, with the new flashy name of "Necromancers".
and while its true that the RAS indeed must have a deep knoledge of how necromancy works, they still don't practice it.
Do the starting quests for all forsaken, notice how they absolutely despise the mindless undeads.
Common Necromancers can only raise the deads as empty husks reanimated via sorcery, but mindless, like animals.
only the most powerfull necromancers like the lich king, or the arch-liches, or the val'kyrs have gained suficient power and knoledge to fully reanimate a person while still preserving their minds.
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