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Rogue PvP and (Probably Not) You
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Post by
Rohl
I figure that, unless I'm horribly wrong, I'll eventually be making an actual post and putting it on the WoW official forums, but for now I'm here for proofreading from the less-%^&*ish of the two communities.
This is mostly about Subtlety and maybe a bit about Combat. I PvP as Mutilate, just like everyone else and their mother. Honestly it's the only part of being a Rogue I hate. Unlike Death Knights we get cornered into, generally, one of two specs. Mutilate/Prep for PvP and Combat for PvE. Sure there are Rogues who PvE as Assassination, but let's be honest, the last time I saw a good Assassination Rogue beat a good Combat Rogue in DPS was post-WotLK, and then it never happened again. And there are those of us who PvP as Combat and Subtlety(Go Us).
First off I want to address my concerns over vanish and it's crappiness. I'm well aware of pre-Everything Vanish and how it was an actual ability I liked to have in my quicker hotkeys. I'm also well aware of the trials Subtlety has gone through throughout the ages. I, personally, see no reason that fixing Vanish would overpower the Rogue class so much they would need to take away something else.
My Rogue is not my only class. I've played every class in the game, at the higher levels and mostly in PvP. I know how it feels as a Warlock to be stun locked. I also know how good it feels to make a rogue blow his trinket then fear and kill him with DoTs slowly. I've played a Mage so I know how to wait out a Cloak of Shadows. My 4 main characters are a Druid(Boomkin/Resto) my Rogue(Assassination/Subtlety), my Mage(Arcane/Frost), and my Shaman(Elemental/Resto). The rest of the 80s I've played have been through the Public Test Realm, the Arena Tournament Server, and friend's account (Yes I know I'm a horrible player for playing with a premade etc etc etc). And I can safely say that after having killed numerous Rogues on all the classes bumping vanish would not overpower Rogues.
My Ideas for Vanish are as follows:
- Remove all DoTs on the Rogue
- Remove all Movement Impairing Effects (I know it already does this)
- Remove all Magic debuffs completely (Looking at you Hunter's Mark)
- Make the Rogue immune to all single target attacks for 2 seconds or until Vanish is removed, whichever comes first (I.E. You vanish with a Frostbolt/Auto Attack bearing down on you and you negate it, BUT if you remove Vanish to re-open on someone the immunity is removed. Area of Effect attacks still knock you out of Vanish)
So that's that. Not too overpowered do you think?
Now for the Subtlety fixes. Honestly Subtlety is a fine spec for PvP if you know how to play. But what would make a VIABLE spec would be to have Ambush ignore Armor AND Resilience (Yes I know this may be overpowered).
But let's be honest if Ambush gets mitigated by both so it only does a few thousand, but a Mage/Shaman/Warlock/AnyOtherCaster gets nukes that they can use every ,say, 8 seconds that crit for a good 6-7k on 1200 Resil targets then a Rogue whose Ambush he can use once (Or more if we include Shadow Dance and re Vanishing) should crit for as much if not more. As for those spells being casts I just want to say my Shaman's Lava Burst (He has bad gear) has about a 1 second cast and an 8 second cooldown.
That's my 2 cents, and I won't TL;DR this for anyone because you can read it, and if you can't I'd rather not have you commenting.
Post by
trendon
- Remove all DoTs on the Rogue
- Remove all Movement Impairing Effects (I know it already does this)
- Remove all Magic debuffs completely (Looking at you Hunter's Mark)
- Make the Rogue immune to all single target attacks for 2 seconds or until Vanish is removed, whichever comes first (I.E. You vanish with a Frostbolt/Auto Attack bearing down on you and you negate it, BUT if you remove Vanish to re-open on someone the immunity is removed. Area of Effect attacks still knock you out of Vanish)
So that's that. Not too overpowered do you think?
Subtlety rogues would be borderline invincible and, every five minutes, completely invincible courtesy of Prep. You can open three times without fear of being yanked back out of stealth courtesy of pre-existing conditions. If you are Shadow Dance, you basically get a fourth opener. Cloak can be saved until the end since you don't need it to save your ass anymore.
Your biggest enemy would be energy; not the target.
But, from your lips ...
Post by
sevink
I've said it in other forums. The only thing sub needs to make it viable is amubush bypass 50% armor.
You don't need 100% you don't need resil.
I'm a pure PvP sub rogue, and after fighting tons of plate wearers. If ambush JUST ambush bypassed 50% armor we would be much much better off.
Of course expose armor and this armor bypass should stack for a 70% armor bypass (if you expose armor before sdance which you should be doing) on your ambushes. This would give our shadowdances a little more kick vs paladins, warriors and dks, and of course to druids. I just don't see a need to bypass ALL armor and resil. That seems like overkill.
I also assume with good gearing/geming you should be able to reach a good 90% armor pen with your ambushes if you played it correctly. Again I still don't see this being to much of a problem because once you reach this high end arena/gear you will be facing people which tons more life due to them wearing wrath. I still think this would be the most balenced buff for sub.
Post by
335633
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262843
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496923
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Post by
KidB
Vanish already removes hunter's mark.
Post by
Proteja
pretty stupid suggestion, you'd have essentially 3 cloaks, which would !@#$ all over any caster class
Post by
371537
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skullsuku
Instead of removing dots vanish can be made as an escape mechanism where the rogue is not pulled out of stealth but must be able to move freely out of danger. If the rogue is lucky he can run away and re-stealth. The rogue must not be able to use any of the skills that require stealth when a dot persists when in vanished state and at the same time the rogue must not be visible till vanish effect fades(10secs).
Post by
Caperon
Instead of removing dots vanish can be made as an escape mechanism where the rogue is not pulled out of stealth but must be able to move freely out of danger. If the rogue is lucky he can run away and re-stealth.
The rogue must not be able to use any of the skills that require stealth when a dot persists when in vanished state
and at the same time the rogue must not be visible till vanish effect fades(10secs).
I actually like that part.
Post by
115964
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rohl
I totally forgot I made this sorry guys.
I was aware that they did change Vanish at one point on the PTR. In fact it used to be like that pre-BC. I remember it actually being useful. That or no one ever dotted me so I never noticed.
Aaroc: I've always felt that when it comes to Ambush it's basically the same as Aimed Shot (I don't play Hunters much so I'm not sure the mechanics of it.) You're lining up a heavy shot which should mean you can aim for the weak spots in the armor. And I have always been a huge fan of the Rock - Paper - Scissors method of PvP. (Cloth kills Plate - Plate kills Leather - Leather kills Caster) So I'm sure it's affecting my mind a lot.
Skullsuku: I like that idea, that's what I was thinking Vanish could be. More of an escape tool than something that NEEDS to be used offensively.
Trendon: You make excellent points and I agree. However, and this is personal, I've always felt there should be a rock paper scissors system with the exception of truly good players that can kill their counter.
Blaze272: I'm well aware of the way this would overpower a Rogue. I have played all the classes at high levels and competitively. But I haven't found a single class that can't already be decimated by a good Rogue. And ,honestly, (again with Rock Paper Scissors, apparently I love that idea) Rogues should be able to rip a mediocre Warlock/Shaman/Mage apart. While a skilled one would bring them low on health.
All in all, my ideas are a first draft. They need to be refined. Some completely gotten rid of. But we can't ignore the fact that Rogues are slowly getting pushed under the rug by gear changes. And instead of just another person running yelling at Blizzard to buff Rogues I want to go there with a comprehensive idea.
I thought Cataclysm would change it. But it won't. All they're doing is continuing the exponential increase of gear stats that slowly push skill and burst damage under the carpet.
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