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Why Deforestation isn't a nerf
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Post by
579986
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Yunaleia
Baiting eh, thought you might be past the age of having to resort to that, but then again its not surprising you did.
And actually no, I just gave up talking to the hyperbole. No point trying to argue a case where the defense is turning a simple problem into an all time hard thought out decision made by Blizz because of some mystery issue that until now has never been a problem.
And considering your arguement is word for word the same as
oberon
, its hard not to come to that assumption.
Post by
curlymon
Please answer the questions I asked.
That's rich.
You never actually did answer it though. I asked for facts to back up your thoughts and then I asked YOU why YOU thought something should not change.
You responded with "because it is a set precedence" rather then a reason
Then you went into "blizz has not said it needs to be addressed so why address it?", rather then giving your opinion why it should or should not be.
You get a zero for that day, son.
"Sometimes I feel like I am talking to a wall that is trying to convince me it is the floor... Maybe I'm drunk"
Post by
579986
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
curlymon
Speculation is the name of the game when you talk about a future patch. Until it goes live nothing is solid and just because we have not read about it does not mean it won't be considered.
In the core of what I am saying is, why should the changes not propagate to other classes and specs?
All I have heard so far is "just because" and "Blizzard set it that way in the past" which is not an answer at all.
P.S. - I am not asking for consensus I'm just asking for you to step out of your box (read: safe zone) and answer a direct and reasonable question from a perspective other then your own. It is neither hard or unreasonable to do so...
No one is demanding this change. We are just asking "why not?
As for why people don't cry foul about Para and I? We've been around a lot longer then you and they know from interactions through out our postings here that we are not the same person. Logic.
I'd love to see you start making meaningful posts in threads outside this one.
Post by
oberondreaming
The questions I am posing are:
Why is there a restriction in the first place? (a pure mechanics answer would be preferable but some speculation as to the thought process of the devs is acceptable)
Why is the restriction so immutable to you?
I'm really not sure how else to put this.
There are entire classes that don't get to heal while they DPS, so Blizzard has decided that Hybrid classes who choose to DPS should be restricted in how much and when they can heal (or at least penalized in their DPS should they decide to do so).
That's why that restriction is there, for class balance. It's not even really speculation, because I'm fairly certain that Blizzard representatives have said as much (assuming, of course, you're willing to take them at their word for anything).
The restriction isn't "immutable to me" per se. It just doesn't seem likely to be changing any time soon, since Blizzard representatives have also seemed to indicate that they're happy with how that system is working (thus leading me, personally, to believe that if anything is going to change it will be Elemental Shamans moving to a similar mechanic).
Regarding "Primary/Secondary roles" and DPS classes getting to perform their "secondary" (i.e. Utility) role while still DPSing... well moonkin get to do that too, and will get to do more of it with the changes coming in cataclysm (exploding/slowing mushrooms, silence/interrupt). So you can't act as though moonkin only have a primary role. They get a secondary one too, it's just restricted to utility, and does not include healing, thus making them parallel to most of the other DPS classes.
As for why people don't cry foul about Para and I? We've been around a lot longer then you and they know from interactions through out our postings here that we are not the same person. Logic.
Regardless, it's more than a bit insulting to suggest that someone isn't a "real person" just because they agree with someone else. Even if they're only posting on one particular topic.
I mean, Parrazell only recently returned to the forums, for all we know you managed to get his login information and are posting on both accounts. But it would be silly, pointless, dismissive and insulting to suggest that that's actually what's happening. And entirely unrelated to the actual discussion.
Post by
curlymon
Ober thanks for responding with a well thought out answer!
I guess for me I don't see a reason for the restriction to be there myself. I think there should be one, no doubt there, but in a different location. One allowing both Spriest and Moonkins to do some healing with out that loss.
In short I feel that maybe the 'restriction' should exist but be moved to a slightly different location within our mechanics.
I have a follow up question to the second one for you Ober. If you were a dev what do you think you would look at doing if you felt the changes could/should be made?
Allow ele shams, boomkins, and Spriests to heal "in form" and move the restriction to another location to balance it out, there by adding a slight twist to things to keep it enlivening?
Place a restriction on Ele shams similar to what we see with Boomkin/spriest?
Or some other idea?
There is no right answer i'm just wondering how you would make the change if you felt it should be made.
As for why people don't cry foul about Para and I? We've been around a lot longer then you and they know from interactions through out our postings here that we are not the same person. Logic.
Regardless, it's more than a bit insulting to suggest that someone isn't a "real person" just because they agree with someone else. Even if they're only posting on one particular topic.
My comments were in response to what was originally said in this vein. Not really intended to suggest that
Aerundel
was just a facet of your online personality.
Post by
oberondreaming
I have a follow up question to the second one for you Ober. If you were a dev what do you think you would look at doing if you felt the changes could/should be made?
Allow ele shams, boomkins, and Spriests to heal "in form" and move the restriction to another location to balance it out, there by adding a slight twist to things to keep it enlivening?
Place a restriction on Ele shams similar to what we see with Boomkin/spriest?
Or some other idea?
There is no right answer i'm just wondering how you would make the change if you felt it should be made.
Personally, I think the paradigm of having hybrid caster DPS specs have a form that enforces some DPS loss when they want to heal to be fairly reasonable. Thus I'd probably go with the second option of giving Elemental Shamans some sort of "Form." But that might also just be because I see it, and think it works. If someone came up with a great system that fit your first option there, I might be convinced that it would be better.
But, I do think, that in order to be "fair" to pure DPS classes, hybrid classes need to be forced to specialize (and thereby give up some of their hybrid nature) if they want to really be able to DPS on par with the pure DPS classes.
Post by
curlymon
I'd happily fall into the "hybrids are 3-5% behind pures" if heals could be be made viable.
And like i said I'm not trying to gain heals with no trade off. Honestly we are fairly well balanced right now compared to others in PvP. It would be an interesting change.
A modification of what I said a few pages back for resto (but reversed) would be one way to do it but I feel Blizz would never look at that method since it might make things a fair bit "boring" in the end. They tend to like 'sexy' answers rather then a simple one, lol.
Post by
oberondreaming
I'd happily fall into the "hybrids are 3-5% behind pures" if heals could be be made viable.
Personally, one of the things I like about the current system is that it works for PvE and PvP.
In PvP, you either give up a bit of DPS to gain versatility, or you stick with DPS and give up your versatility. Both options have value and it becomes a choice for the player to make at any given time.
In PvE, you give up your versatility (because you don't *need* to heal) and keep your DPS. This prevents DPS specs for Hybrid classes from being a pale imitation of pure DPS classes.
A system that just said "You can heal as much as you want, but do 5% less damage" is going to make every hybrid caster DPS spec less than ideal in a PvE situation. Because the value of the healing approaches zero and the loss of 5% DPS matters.
Post by
razzem
I'd happily fall into the "hybrids are 3-5% behind pures" if heals could be be made viable.
The problem is, so would
everyone
. I mean, I like the idea of a hybrid that could do dps or healing equally well just depending on what spells they cast, but.... If you could heal with the full healing power (-3-5%) AND could dps (at -3-5%), this would be WAY more advantageous than only being able to do one or the other. For pve and pvp.
Everyone would roll a hybrid
because to seamless shift from dps to heals with no significant reduction in dps or healing output would be way overpowered. Getting dps'd down to fast? Shift to your potent healing. Healer getting you down? Switch to your potent dmg. Certain phase of a fight were it can be 2 healed? Go dps. Certain phase of a fight where more healing is needed? Go heals.
To be able to do both without a significant loss of either one is OP in both pve and pvp.
I hope I'm reading what you are saying correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Post by
oberondreaming
To be able to do both without a significant loss of either one is OP in both pve and pvp.
I think it's interesting that we both highlighted the exact opposite problem with a simple reduction in capabilities system.
Really, it depends on how much of a reduction it is.
If it's too much, no one will bring hybrid DPS because pure DPS is just too much better at DPSing.
If it's too little, no one will bring pure DPS because hybrid DPS can do almost as well at the DPSing and bring other benefits as well.
Which really is the beauty of the "Forms" system, in my mind. In form, you can't do the other stuff, but can DPS just as well as the DPS. This means that in most situations you're just another DPS like any mage, rogue or hunter. But if crap hits the fan, and your healers go down, or just need help keeping people up, you can drop out and heal, but only at the cost of a significant (in the sense of being noticeable) loss of DPS.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
oberondreaming
The "block" will be further accentuated in Cataclysm by the interaction of Spirit and talent tree Mastery.
If anything Cataclysm changes seem likely to weaken the inherent limitations that you list.
Spirit will replace Hit for most hybrid DPS specs (elemental/shadow/balance) and the relative values of crit and haste seem to be shifting more towards being equal for all specs.
Anyway, it's important to note that it's not a question of whether Moonkin can heal as well as Trees or vice versa. But rather where Moonkin stand in comparison to pure DPS classes that matters.
Can a Moonkin DPS as well as a Mage or Warlock can? Should they be able to?
Can a Moonkin also heal better than a Mage or Warlock can without giving up any of their DPS? Should they be able to?
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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