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Elemental PvP Questions
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Post by
dezziedc
OK - so have asked a few questions around the place and had different answers. there isn't a solid guide on elemental PvP that I can find so I'm just going to go over the basic questions here. I have only just hit 80 and am planning on farming the gear I need to hit arenas with a Destro Lock in 2s.
I also asked some questions on a different forum although the response was fairly generic and the basis was that a guild can only do so much as it is very much situational. I appreciate that, however there are some basics I would love some opinions on.
I have pretty much run with the standard spec
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#hVIMqcdztGfuAoMhgco
Given this spec my research has provided me with these couple of numbers as imperative:
Hit Rating - 79
Spell Pen - 150
So that is pretty much the core info I have to date.
So assuming I go for the easy set first and farm for the furious gear to get started, and I have Hit Rating and Spell Pen covered, what should I be gemming for and enchanting for?
I understand sp is the Elementals main attack, however I can see some benefit in haste for cast times and response times. And obviously some benefit in resilience as well and maybe even crit. The other item I need to think about is the meta and weapon.
So any thoughts on these questions would be much appreciated.
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499948
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Post by
dezziedc
Yeah sure - here is the armory.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dreadmaul&cn=Dezzie
Although as I said, I only just hit 80 so I've only just begun the farming of badges - I only just did my first higher level dungeon last night so I'm hoping I should have at least a couple of items as of the end of the weekend and hopefully the full badge set as of the end of next week (I don't have time to spend all day in heroics).
So ignore the gear I have at the moment - I had to equip some random stuff like the shoulders and the mace from crafting and auction house because I had BOA gear on. So I couldn't get into the heroics with BOAs on I just replaced them with what I could find quickly (chest was another one).
So the plan is to run heroics for the furious gear, and throw in a WG when it is up, I should be able to pull together a reasonable starting set (and with the daily heroic I might even be able to throw in a frost badge item there as well).
Also going to try getting the guild to run me through a few of the new ICC 5 man dungeons to grab some reasonable off spec/PVE gear to help out.
I'll have a look at that spec too - burst is the big benefit of ele in the whole cleave approach, so I can understand the thundering strikes point allocation.
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413455
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Post by
dezziedc
Thanks for the responses guys. It gives me something to work with.
Just a question about the hit, what I have read is that at level 80 for PvP I would need 4% hit. Read it in a couple of places but the easiest one I can find at the moment is wowwiki. I used this as the basis for my hit calcs. Is this wrong? Am I using the wrong calcs here? If the table they provide is correct, shouldn't we be working off a target of level 80? Or am I not taking something into account?
Also with spell pen, there have been a number of different numbers thrown out. Most say around 130 would be enough to counter the auras of a pally (searched through forums for this information and there doesn't seem to be total agreement on this figure). However (if I use wowwiki as an example again) 135 was the highest stated so to be on the safe side I was using that.
Also, with a meta, should I be looking at just the regular ele crit one? Or should I be weighing up some of the PvP metas with things like speed increase? I would have thought though that the additional speed increase would be wasted given the GW instant and it wouldn't stack anyway? Although there are other benefits provided through the PvP metas...
Post by
dezziedc
OK guys - just a follow up on this topic - wouldn't mind some comments on my progress and where I am heading with this.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dreadmaul&cn=Dezzie&gn=Dark+Shadow+Elites
Any feedback would be appreciated. Keep in mind it is a work in progress and apart from building gear, I need to respec the 2 points from Improved Fire Nova into Unrelenting Storm. Will change the glyphs as well once I am ready to arena.
Another thing I wanted to ask was about trash in heroics. I'm doing heroics where I can to get badges and hopefully get gear a little quicker. Last night a druid in a group I was in kept spamming a cycle for me to follow - LB, LB, FS, LvB, LB, LB etc. and as per usual called me fail when I ignored him. Now for trash, I find that pretty pointless - I do that on bosses but not trash. Generally the trash dies pretty quickly in the PUGs. Most of the time they die before I have a chance to get through that cycle.
Normally what I try to do is thow down a fire totem (magma) in the middle of them and then go through a Fire Nova, CL, LB cycle. That at least gets some AOE damage going and tends to be more effective on groups of trash (although it is mana draining). Have I got the wrong idea here? Should I be going with the standard cycle or is the AOE focus alright?
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Post by
dezziedc
To be honest I am loving it. The gear is coming along nicely and I find that in BGs with the gear I have, I am doing insane amounts of damage and pretty much hold my own 1 on 1 and sometimes against more than 1. Spend most of my time defending nodes - I find that my abilites help hold off attackers until help arrives so I think the ele can be great support as well as offense.
As far as arena goes, the lock and I have only been doing it for 3 weeks now and not really pushing it. Spending a bit of time doing skirmishes to get combos down etc. Trying to work out strats against classes and combinations. The first couple of weeks we just spent gearing up and trying to apply what we thought were the best strategies. The second week we did more than our allocated 10 to try to get up in rating. This week however with a 8-2 win ratio for our 10, I'd say we are starting to pick up a rhythm. Still only at 500 rating but we are taking it easy as we are still trying out different strategies. Maybe this week was lucky and we came up against some badly geared teams and the time of day we did it may have been optimal for us, but we can only see how we go this week and compare.
As far as 2s go, and with the combo we have, offense is the best strategy we have found. When the gate opens we pick a target and burst it down asap while trying to control the other through fear and stuns etc. For that, I am still toying with the value of haste and whether the amounts I am able to apply lends any real value. Definately the more offensive stats the better. Generally the only problems we have are with mages and the one time we had a boomkin. Melee are generally not a problem (pally's are annoying because of the bubble) and hunters, although we initially had problems with them, don't seem to be creating as many problems as they did in the first couple of weeks. Haven't come up against a similar combo yet though.
As for Mp5 - I can see what you mean. In 2's for us though, the combination and our strategy means a quick fight. If we don't get them down quickly, we find ourselves in trouble. So I would say from my perspective, the crit does provide some limited benefit. Mathematically, I couldn't say for sure, but I can say that the Mp5 probably doesn't really provide me with much value either, generally because we want to be in and out of there as quickly as possible.
If you look at my armory, we started 3's last night. Although the Hunter is still gearing up and levelling pets etc, we learned very quickly that this combination will find it difficult to progress quickly - if at all. Every team we came up against had at least 1 healer in it - most had a combination of main and off healers. Bursting down a single target in that situation is extremely difficult. Where we were able to take down one of our targets, and find ourselves 2v2, that was where the Mp5 would come in handy. By the time we were in a situation where we may be able to apply some strategy, I had expended most of my mana and had limited resources to get it back. If I am going to take the 3's seriously, I would consider the Mp5 set. Even consider switching to Resto for that combo.
Looking through some other Ele shamans who PvP, some use a combination of the sets. So I guess there is some benefit to using Mp5 over the crit. Also, in my spec, I plan to move the points out of improved fire nova and place in unrelenting storm. Fire Nova is useless in arena - and provides some limited value in BGs.
This is however only based on my limited experiences so far - I have no doubt as we work our way higher in ratings and come up against better teams, our strats and my views will change. What I can say for sure though is that I love playing Elemental in PvP. It is a challenge but still extremely fun.
PS - sorry about the wall of text.
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Post by
dezziedc
Exactly what I was thinking Troll. While I was doing my standard 10 for the first round of 3s, I was thinking a HPally would be ideal in a team with the lock and I. If I was to head down this path, I would most likely go for either the full set or a combination of the Mp5 set as well. The matches would inevitably last longer and so I would need to allow myself to regen mana whereever possible. Also, I could see myself off healing so mana would become very precious.
Post by
dezziedc
You want 6% hit, particularly as a ele since you don't want your shears/hex to miss, which is either 158 with no Elemental Precision or 132 with 1/3 Elemental precision.
Spell penetration you want either 75 or 130. 75 to negate MotW (which I usually purge anyway), or 130 to negate Nature Protection totem/Fire resist Aura. Not sure where you're getting 135.
As to stats, I go with SP, resilience up to a good amount, and then haste. Crit I feel is semi wasted given the auto crit from Lava burst, and the already high crit we get from talents.
And just to follow up on some stats I have been looking at. Hospy has the spell pen right here from what I have been able to read up on. 1 point of resist is equal to 1 point of spell pen. So to completely cover all spell based resistances (excluding extra gear and pot buffs etc), you would need to get 130 spell pen to counter the pally auras/totems etc. 75 for MotW as Hospy has said.
However, I am still unsure about the hit. From what I can find, 4% is the spell hit required for a PvP target of equal level. So that equates to 105 (rounded up) at level 80. 79 with one point in precision. This is obviously base hit. So generally for a damage spell this should cover everything I need (assuming no resistances). However, binary spells (such as shear and hex) don't fall under the same roll when determining whether or not they hit or miss (or at least this is how I understand it). They are affected by something called 'average resistances' which I am still not clear on. As I understand it additional hit may go some way to counteracting these resistances, but is there an optimal target I should be aiming for for spell hit in these instances. Does the Spell Pen not cover any resistance to these binary spells?
It seems a little unclear and inconsistent from the sites I have read. Some say hit does not go any way to counteracting the resistances of the binary spells, however most people are suggesting a shammy run with higher than normal hit stats for PvP.
Edit:
After further investigation on sites like wowwiki and elitist jerks, I have noticed there are limited references to Hit and and Spell Pen when referring to PvP. So, assuming the concepts are the same, I can only assume based on the data available and on what I am reading that Spell Hit required for PvP is a flat 4% without talents. No more no less.
Spell Pen is 75 for MotW and 130 for auras and totems.
First roll when casting a spell will determine if it hits. In the above case - I have 100% hit so it should hit everytime. Second roll will determine if it is resisted. For a damage spell, it appears the resistance percentage will only partially resist the damage - ie. the spell will hit, however some of it may be resisted (depending on spell pen levels and target resistances). For non damage spells the resist percentage will determine if the spell is resisted completely or not.
So from what I can see, to ensure shear and Hex hit every time (assuming hit is maxed), you need to build your Spell Pen up to ensure no spell is ever resisted.
Edit 2:
Doing yet more research, is it safe to say that the extra 2% hit covers racials? So for NE and Taurens who have an extra 2% chance to not be hit by nature spells, this would account for the difference.
Post by
frankc
for 1 burst teams will most likely fail....enough said...even 2vs2..me a affliction lock and a tree druid destroy just about any team we face....may take us a few but its a joke....i have a pvp ele shammy though..and burst is theyre thing...i have yet to face a resto shammy 2 vs 2 so i would have to say fail...in 3vs3 i again say a druid....they are the best group healers in the game if played right....shammy a close second...but in arena trees cant be CCed as much...shammys can...
Post by
dezziedc
for 1 burst teams will most likely fail....enough said...even 2vs2..me a affliction lock and a tree druid destroy just about any team we face....may take us a few but its a joke....i have a pvp ele shammy though..and burst is theyre thing...i have yet to face a resto shammy 2 vs 2 so i would have to say fail...in 3vs3 i again say a druid....they are the best group healers in the game if played right....shammy a close second...but in arena trees cant be CCed as much...shammys can...
Frank, I wouldn't mind having a look at your armory and checking out your stats etc. Can you link it please?
Also, I don't disagree that a healer is required for 3's, although I think a good burst team can get by in 2's - just going by my experiences. I haven't been in 5's but I am guessing it is a whole other ballgame.
You are right, generally in arena it is difficult to CC a tree - although not completely impossible. There are other methods of negating their value though.
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