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Where to assign final 2 pnts in Bear spec ?
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Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
GenXCub
The problem with 2/3 imp Mangle is that it doesn't remove a full GCD from your rotation.
Example:
Bears without Imp Mangle have a 6 second mangle cooldown.
This means they do Mangle, FF, Swipe, Swipe(lacerate to refresh if needed), Mangle.
3 abilities in between mangles.
Bears WITH imp mangle have a 4.5 second mangle cooldown, so you do Mangle, FF, Swipe, Mangle.
If you had 2/3 Imp Mangle, it has a 5 second cooldown, so you'd do
Mangle, FF, Swipe, now, at this point, your mangle has a .5 second cooldown left. You can do nothing for .5 seconds and then Mangle again, or do another ability, but then your reduced cooldown became worthless. Neither choice seems great. You either negate the talent completely, or you slow your TPS for .5 seconds.
Lowering the rage cost of Lacerate is meh. Shredding Attacks would be the talent I'd choose if there were a chance I'd be doing some cat dps (maybe in places where there's a fight that just needs 1 fewer tank and you'll convert to dps). Of the remaining talents, that would be the GET for better cat dps, but kinda worthless for bears.
If you're going to be pure bear, no time spent as a cat, I'd do Brutal Impact. As you said, lackluster. But I feel that it's the most useful of the 3. It's the Sophie's choice for bears.
Post by
Lightrain
The key point here would be...
For a bear aiming to get into ICC raids soon, please help me decide.
KotJ spec is best after 4pT10. Since you aren't close to that yet, remove KoTJ and then you have 5 points, which you put into Natural and Master shape shifter for the overall 4% boost in damage, which is great for threat.
Problem solved.
Post by
hashmel
2/3 Improved Mangle as has been stated is basically wasted talents as the CD conflicts with GCDs.
2/2 Brutal Impact would make your only remotely reliable pve stun/interrupt more reliable.
2/2 Natural Instinct would allow you to more easily heal yourself and others be it soloing, pvp, or the occasional clever oh #$%^ recovery.
5/5 Furor would make powershifting for rage much more reliable to the point you could do it while in combat at times.
2/3 Natural Shapeshifter would further reduce the mana cost of shifting.
2/2 Shredding Attacks would have almost no effect in bear form but if you go cat in bear spec and adhere to a proper cat "rotation" rather than being a mangle-bot it's very beneficial.
2/3 Primal Tenacity would only benefit you when in pvp for the most part and only when in pvp and caught in cat form.
Brutal Impact is my personal choice as I'm not fond of people standing around while Spell Flingers go uninterrupted and such.
Even without 4T10 KotJ is superior to MS unless you require the constant 4% damage to maintain aggro, if you can go without that constant 4% damage without chronic threat problems then KotJ is the better choice as it offers superior mana cost reduction to shifting, more utility/flexibility, more damage per point than MS, and more damage when it matters than MS.
Post by
Tarkeel
Even without 4T10 KotJ is superior to MS unless you require the constant 4% damage to maintain aggro, if you can go without that constant 4% damage without chronic threat problems then KotJ is the better choice as it offers superior mana cost reduction to shifting, more utility/flexibility, more damage per point than MS, and more damage when it matters than MS.
Only if you can live with the increased damage taken, which for a bear trying to get into ICC is a no-no IMHO. KotJ really shines when tanking content where survivability is less of a concern, or you have 4T10.
Post by
hashmel
The key is to think about when to pop enrage, blindly hitting it right as a boss frenzies then wondering why your face hurts so much isn't the way to go about it.
Hitting it at the start of a pull when damage will be fairly low and threat acquisition is important, when there's a lull in boss damage output either making the increased damage negligible or keeping your rage supply from depleting, or when a boss enters a vulnerable state where you can contribute to beating the enrage timer are a few examples of ideal times to enrage.
Post by
Tarkeel
Exactly :) Which is why I wouldn't recommend it to tanks who are starting out, a constant 4% boost is better for them.
In those same situations, I would take shredding attacks in the last 2, to push out even more damage.
Post by
hashmel
Agree 100% that if the constant presence of 4% damage is absolutely vital to maintaining aggro then MS is the best choice but once you pass that threshold where you can live without it without chronic threat problems KotJ has it beat.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
Even without 4T10 KotJ is superior to MS unless you require the constant 4% damage to maintain aggro, if you can go without that constant 4% damage without chronic threat problems then KotJ is the better choice as it offers superior mana cost reduction to shifting, more utility/flexibility, more damage per point than MS, and more damage when it matters than MS.
I'm curious.... You say enrage during those "when it matters most" times, like when getting instant burst threat at the start of a fight.
Well, I have an issue with that.
With 4pT10, it's amazing, no doubt! I'ld be popping enrage and jumping into the fray with no fear. But, without it, I wouldn't want to start a pull with a self inflicted damage increase. Just from my experience as a tank and healer, the tank's most dangerous part of the fight is on the pull and when you are taunting off another tank, while healers are moving into position before they start spamming heals or trying to top off the other tank before switching to you. This is when the tank tends to dip to low health pretty much every fight I've ever been in, and is also when quick burst threat is the most desirable.
Maybe I'm just crazy, but that's my 2c.
Sure, it's more damage per point, it also lets you swap cat and do more consistent dps for the non cleave taunt fights as well. I'm not saying it's a bad way to spend points. I'm just saying, I don't recommend using it if you are just starting/learning to tank. You should be concentrating on where all the mobs are and how much aggro/how many debuffs on each target you have, and not worrying about when to enrage and when to not enrage.
TLDNR vesrion- Results may vary. KotJ may not be suitable for beginners.
Post by
303745
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Post by
393352
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
I don't know of any bosses that eat your face off in the first 3 seconds if the bear is anywhere close to geared enough.
That's just it. I'm talking about beginner tanks. Also, I've seen plenty of tanks get GG'd by Emalon of all bosses, just because people happen to be a bit slow, maybe a resisted/missed taunt, etc, etc.
Steel breaker in ulduar liked taking bug chunks outa tank HP right off the bat. Same with cleave bosses of any type, if one tank happens to be a split second too slow and is out of range.
I prefer to be prepared during raid fights. I don't like using any survival cooldowns, reguardless how short they may be, at the start of a fight if it can be avoided.
BTW, we are talking about
Enrage
and it's the armor reduction we are talking about, which increases your incoming damage on physical fights. It has nothing to do with HP. With
KotJ
, it gives a damage increase to our abilities as well as the enemy boss's physical attacks. If said bear is under geared/inexperienced, they run a risk of killing themselves should they use it at the wrong time or on the wrong boss.
Post by
393352
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Ebrahim
So, going with 0/60/11 for now.
Brutal Impact?
this how your spec should be
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrzceRc0zAkbAczb:z0nzMc
and since Infected Wounds doesn't Stack with Thunder Clap and Icy Touch and many other skills ,
its kinda useless , unless u don't have any class that got kinda the same ability and that's rare.
Post by
Tarkeel
So, going with 0/60/11 for now.
Brutal Impact?
this how your spec should be
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrzceRc0zAkbAczb:z0nzMc
and since Infected Wounds doesn't Stack with Thunder Clap and Icy Touch and many other skills ,
its kinda useless , unless u don't have any class that got kinda the same ability and that's rare.
Way to miss the point.. You linked a build that doesn't even have KotJ, but has Imp Mangle.
You might get overlap on infected wounds in many situations, but not all.. And in those situations, 25% increased damage is going to kill you.
If you really want a full damage build,
this
will sort you.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Tarkeel
@Urlik: I wouldn't recomend it; but it's the max damage you can do in bear form. Normally OoC doesn't help out much on bears at high content, but it's a must for doing heroics and old content where you quickly get rage starved.
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