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Looking for Help with Aggro control in Heroics
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Post by
530488
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450468
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Post by
Kelborn
Question 1, 2, 3: People are stupid.
Question 4: One of the mobs is a caster, I believe it's the Acolyte. It doesn't move unless you LoS it, but the other mobs do. Best tactic is to drop DnD, Death Grip that guy, get your diseases on it, and by the time the other mobs get to you, you're ready to pestilence them and line up a Blood Boil.
Question 5: Those mobs deal a crapton of damage. On the hill, the lower left and upper right mobs are casters that need to die first, I usually Death Grip the upper right into my DnD. You need to stay out of the Hellfire. Or silence the guy. Your healer just needs to be on the ball with those mobs. And the next two packs of mobs, the skellys and skelly caster... just grip one of the casters to the other and drop DnD. They don't hit too hard if your dps are smart and focus the casters. Just stay out of the Freezing Circle (or silence them) and you're golden.
Edit: I'm a Blood Tank myself, and one tip for general threat control I have for you: Rune Strike = <3. On normal packs of mobs, I get 40k threat on my first mob, then tab target and spam my /cast !Rune Strike macro on whichever mob I have the lowest threat on.
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530488
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404185
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153225
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Post by
Kelborn
The problem with Strangulate and Mind Freeze is twofold. One blows a rune, one requires melee range. If you Strangulate, you can't do one of the following: Death and Decay, or Pestilence. And if you're pulling a caster with Mind Freeze... you're just doing it wrong.
When I grip a mob into my DnD, I stay on it until these conditions are met:
I have 40k+ threat on it
It has both diseases on it
Every other mob is in my DnD
Every other mob was hit by Pestilence
The reason why people would yell at you for using Death Grip, is that DKs tend to overuse it. It's a caster pulling tool, and should be used as such. If that's how you're using it, then they can shove it. A main problem that some people have with its usage is that they try and use it as a taunt. It does not cause any gain of threat, it just makes something attack you for three seconds. I felt the pain of that when Toravon came back to say hi before my debuffs wore off...
Death Grip is kind of in the same boat as Army of the Dead. A useful tool if used correctly, and a bad thing waiting to happen if used incorrectly.
@Lisp, Blood DKs do not have the same AoE aggro as Frost. Not by a long shot. We're a single target tanking spec. Our AoE threat comes from improvising and constantly changing targets to hit them with a Rune Strike. It's an interesting way to play, and I personally think it's more rewarding. You don't know how many times I've gotten "Wtf? A Blood Tank? This is going to be so fail..." at the start of a heroic or raid. Then when we go through with no problems, :)
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173035
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404185
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Post by
AnrDaemon
Those "stupid little symbol things" are there to designate which mob to kill first. Go to esc -> keybindings -> scroll about 4/5 of the way down -> keybind skull, cross, and star.
You can also just target them and right click on their raid frame and go to raid symbol.
Macros are better if you need to do it mid-fight for some reason though. But for the PoS pulls it doesn't hurt to take a few seconds before pulling to throw 'em on there.
You don't have time to mess with menus. If you psend more than 5 seconds marking all mobs in pack, it's unprofessional. And noone said anything about macros.
Post by
AnrDaemon
Question 3. Is there a valid reason why groups do not kill the healer first?
ToC HC. Most of the time, heals from shaman is something, while annoying, are nonessential. If you have Rogue-Warrior-Shaman combo, the best course of action would be to take out something other than Shammy first.
(note: I have yet to see a group that uses crowd control, so, I am assuming CCing is out of the question in heroic dungeons).
Contr-question: Is there any good excuse for tank being speechless and leaving party after first wipe? Do yourself a favor, TELL party to do this or that. Even two words, "Sheep star", "Trap Hunters" will set party in a straight line and hopefully make your own headache less painful.
For example, the first pack of 5 mobs in Forge of Souls has a healer in them (and almost all groups do have a healer). But, half the time people attack something else (without consistency as to which) and half the time someone puts those stupid little symbol things above the heads with the skull on the healer.
I usually don't bother finding a healer, as they are less of annoyance, than, say, bonecasters with their random bone throw, or any outsiders that I can't properly arrange by myself, even using everything I have in posession.
Question 4. Ok two mechanic questions. In Forge of Souls the mobs are grouped outside of the DnD range. What is the best way to gather them up?
Depends on your cooldowns, you could just forget about it. Make sure you gather as much as possible, but don't actually bother gathering everything. Leave room for sheep/blind walk, if you see you'll be unable to properly arrange whole pack.
Currently (assuming DPS doesn’t aggro first), I throw down DnD to hit three of the five. The four is melee, so he runs up to me and gets trapped in DnD. The fifth is a healer, if strangulate is up, I hit the mob with it forcing him to run up to me. If Strangulate is not up, I use Death Grip or Mind Freeze then continue the cycle of attacks and disease spreading. Is there a better way? It works when DPSers appear to focus on healer first, but when they don’t chaos assumes.
Throw DnD to cover only one caster that is closest to you on either side. Run to him so whole pack are in front of you and your group is to your side. Death Grip the other caster and make sure the third is on you (Red 100% Threat - use Dark Command when you loose aggro) or properly CC'd until your party have time to deal with it.
There's two such packs, one on the ledge and one in the first room on the way.
The one in pack on the ledge can be sapped, but in room it's a bit dangerous, so "more other" CC means is preferred.
Question 5. Last one. Pit of Saron. No problems...until the pathway (the packs of mobs after Ick). I am having problems staying alive. I target center mob, run up, throw down DnD, click Icks finger for extra life, Icy, Plague, Pest, Blood Tap, Vamp. Somewhere in there I usually die. If the group manages to kill at least one of the mobs, we tend to survive the pack. If they don’t, death to me and chaos assumes. How can this be done better?
You can't do it better by yourself. Use your party to deal with it. Fire Resistance aura/totem, Cleanse/Abolish diseases, LOTS of interrupts on flamebearers or proper CC (Blind works, as well as Ret stun, Priest Shackle... Turn Undead are strictly NOT recommended). Alternatively, you could try to pull mobs down and have shammy hex the only humanoid in party. Haven't done it myself, just guessing possibilities.
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138583
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Post by
AnrDaemon
Middle one - Doombringer - cast disease that ticking for a fair amount of damage, and when more than one party member hit by it, it's something that I prefer to not deal with as healer. Better cleanse and have your work at minimum.
Flamebringers is a pain, but only if you don't know how to cook them. The rest two is just a trash that not really matter much, if DPS keep killing order.
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404185
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Post by
Supremacy
I applaud your honesty and straightforwardness with this. I always like it when people don't just immediately assume that everyone else must be at fault. I do think you should be commended for that.
Fortunately, you're pretty much in the right.
1. Short answer: Usually, no. And, like, by usually, I'm talking 96% of the time.
Arcane mages and destruction warlocks (not so much after the changes to Nether Protection) are frequently better at "tanking" casters than most tanks. Back during the Burning Crusade, raids sometimes had "caster tanks". If this is the case, then it's common courtesy for them to at least let you know that they'll be handling it. I think my arcane mage had something like 130 resistance to all schools of magic just standing around. This is before Mark of the Wild or any auras. The chances of me getting hurt with magic was...well, laughable. Nether Protection, a skill in the destruction tree, just reduces damage you take from magic after you get acclimated to it. So, it's not real, you know, hurting. That's 2%.
There might be a case where a DPS is absolutely sure that they can finish off a target with no problem before they get aggro, and at no risk to them. This shouldn't be at the start of a fight, though. But it can happen, and I, myself, have done it. 1%.
There also might be a mob that is about to do something it really, really shouldn't do. Like some kind of unstoppable full heal. Or some unblockable one hit instant kill. That's an exaggeration, but, you know. Sometimes, they need to be interrupted or stopped or killed real, real fast. The other 1%.
Aside from that? No. No, DPS should not be targeting other people unless you specifically told them to. Marks help to establish kill order. Most people, by that time, have grasped one of the basic WoW laws "Kill skull first, then X".
2. A lot of people have damage meters installed. Recount is a popular one. A lot of people also think that there's some kind of value in "winning" on Recount. One way to do this is to use AoE spells. That way, you're hitting everyone at the same time! Which, I guess, is more important than surviving the encounter, for reasons I have yet to understand. A lot of DPS can jump the gun, and they think that you have aggro magically, or something. Because I don't care if that kind of DPS dies, I will let them. If it's an issue with people you care about, it can sometimes help to tell them "Wait until I Blood Boil, or Conscecrate, or Thunder Clap, or whatever before you attack."
3. Heal...er? No, no, I think it makes more sense to just target that guy who keeps coming back here. He's obviously more of a threat, since he keeps getting healed, somehow. No need to worry about that guy in the back. He's not even attacking.
As far as crowd control, to be fair to DPS, there are some tanks who don't think it's necessary. They'll break it, actually. Of course, to be fair to tanks, there are some DPS who use it suddenly and with no notification. Communication works, here. Most hunters will probably not mind using a Freezing Arrow or something, if asked.
4. What I started doing after finding out that all of them (real funny, Blizzard) cast spells is just physically place myself there. Meaning I would run up to them, wait for them to start casting, then do an AoE. Consecrate, or Thunder Clap, or Death & Decay. Again, you may want to ask DPS to wait for a second.
5. That is easily the hardest pull in that entire instance. Especially if you have no one in your group who can dispel. A paladin would be best, here, since their Cleanse removes that disease the Wrathbringers cast and the the DoT from the Flamebearers. A paladin or shaman could put up a flame resist aura, shaman or hunter could do nature resist.
Those dungeons are designed to make people use their abilities. It's rougher if they don't.
Good luck.
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