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Rotation Question
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Post by
375421
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
149914
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
375421
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
CalaelenDT
Those 2 optimal rotations you mentioned in your post are outdated. A change was made to Arcane Blast a few patches back allowing it to stack up to 4 times instead of 3, which slightly changed the rotation we use.
You should use Arcane Blast 4 times, and than cast Missile Barrage, assuming it procced. If it hasn't procced you should cast an Arcane Barrage, and restart the rotation. You should avoid casting more than 4 Arcane Blasts unless your sure you can handle it (mana-wise), as it costs quite a chunk of mana.
If you run into mana issues, you can sacrifice some DPS for a more mana efficient rotation and go for AB x3 --> MB (or ABarr if there's no proc).
TheAberrant was spot on with his/her explanation of your question, I just figured I'd answer it as well so you have a second opinion.
*edit* I took the liberty of looking up your spec, is there anything specific talent your trying to get from the Arcane tree, as most of the points in there grant you no, or barely any benefit. You'd get more benefit by putting points into Ice Floes, Imp. Blizzard or even Permafrost IMO.
Post by
375421
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sgtpain
Arcane Barrage should only be used if you are moving. Otherwise, whether you get a Missile Barrage proc or not, you should be using Arcane missiles.
Alot of misinformation being passed around about the arcane rotation. It's Arcane blast x4 then Arcane missile x1 rinse and repeat. So please stop giving out bad rotations
Post by
149914
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
CalaelenDT
Arcane Barrage should only be used if you are moving. Otherwise, whether you get a Missile Barrage proc or not, you should be using Arcane missiles.
Alot of misinformation being passed around about the arcane rotation. It's Arcane blast x4 then Arcane missile x1 rinse and repeat. So please stop giving out bad rotations
Actually, Arcane Barrage should only be used if you have 2 AB stacks or less, else not using ABarr and saving your buff for your next AB would be better. (This is in cases where you are forced to move)
I've seen you go off on people in other threads as well regarding the ABarr case, but I have yet to see links to actual math or solid proof. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be, so try and be constructive instead of running around claiming things.
Post by
Sgtpain
Arcane Barrage should only be used if you are moving. Otherwise, whether you get a Missile Barrage proc or not, you should be using Arcane missiles.
Alot of misinformation being passed around about the arcane rotation. It's Arcane blast x4 then Arcane missile x1 rinse and repeat. So please stop giving out bad rotations
Citation needed? Not saying you're wrong, just I've been reading a lot here and haven't heard this except from a minority (though the majority could be people like me parroting the "majority" spreading misinformation). I'll take a gander later today, but a link to some theory crafting/maths would be great. If it's not out there, I'll run some calculations myself later when I have time.
Also, would that depend on gear levels (negating mana limits)? I would think haste would have a huge impact if unprocced AM would beat out ABarr...
Well, it's frustrating when several people are spreading misinformation. As for your argument, well, it's moot, considering two things.
1. That's not the question that was asked. The rotations given are WRONG.
2. Unless you're moving (Which I mentioned), why would you be using only 2 stacks of arcane blast in the first place if you are looking for dps?
You don't have to take my word for it. You are free to do the research yourself. Takes about 20 seconds to check out 3.3 info on EJ.
" because it's very simple: ABspam4MBAM is still the highest dps rotation" taken right from the Arcane thread. The numbers have been crunched, and AB just doesn't have a high enough spell coefficient to outweigh the use of AM, even if there is no MB proc.
Post by
Squishalot
Also, would that depend on gear levels (negating mana limits)? I would think haste would have a huge impact if unprocced AM would beat out ABarr...
Haste wouldn't make a difference unless you're above 50%. Until ABarr hits 1 sec cast times, haste impacts on the DPS of each spell equally.
1. That's not the question that was asked. The rotations given are WRONG.
That is the question being asked. The question, essentially, is "should I use ABarr when MB doesn't proc?" TheAberrant says yes, you say no. Both of you should be trying to back it up with real-life
numbers
(not just "I did higher DPS this way") or theorycrafting, either your own, or a link to somewhere else. Otherwise, what you're saying is just full of crap. See ArgentSun, my sig.
2. Unless you're moving (Which I mentioned), why would you be using only 2 stacks of arcane blast in the first place if you are looking for dps?
Are you trying to be argumentative for the sake of it?
Arcane Barrage should only be used if you have 2 AB stacks or less, else not using ABarr and saving your buff for your next AB would be better.
(This is in cases where you are forced to move)
" because it's very simple: ABspam4MBAM is still the highest dps rotation" taken right from the Arcane thread. The numbers have been crunched, and AB just doesn't have a high enough spell coefficient to outweigh the use of AM, even if there is no MB proc.
Your quote from EJ says nothing about whether you should be using AM (no MB) above ABarr.
The spell coefficient doesn't matter too much in isolation either, considering that ABarr is a 1.5sec base cast time (i.e. GCD) and AM is a 5 sec base cast time, and factoring in that there may be a 'base' difference that any spell coefficient difference needs to overcome. At the end of the day, you're banking on non-MB AM doing more than 3 times as much damage as ABarr, and hoping you don't get interrupted while channeling.
At the moment, at 71, my ABarr at 4 stacks does about 2600-2700. My AM does 950-1000 per hit. That's 2650 vs 5000, or slightly less than double. As far as I'm concerned, that's a DPS drop to use AM without MB, considering the cast time.
Also consider - how does the DPS of unproc'd AM compare to the whole rotation? If you need to sit there channeling AM for such a long period of time, that delays you starting on a rotation which has a 87% chance of proc'ing MB. So there is also a long-term DPS benefit in letting rip with AB earlier, so you're not wasting additional time channeling low DPS attacks.
Post by
Sgtpain
I am not typing out an entire thread on the discussion. You are more than welcome to read it for yourself on EJ.
That said, you're level 71...hit 80, then try and use your numbers for real data. Using numbers as a 71 as your argument isn't giving you accurate results.
Post by
Squishalot
I am not typing out an entire thread on the discussion. You are more than welcome to read it for yourself on EJ.
That said, you're level 71...hit 80, then try and use your numbers for real data. Using numbers as a 71 as your argument isn't giving you accurate results.
Just link a relevant post. The stickies there say to use ABarr if MB isn't proc'd, last time I checked (I think). Again, what you've quoted doesn't say anything about MB. (EJ is blocked at work, so I'll be checking it out at home anyway, along with the math on whether MB is worth casting without any AB stacks.)
IIRC, the DPS order (and mana efficiency reverse order) is:
1) AB4 then continue to AB spam
2) AB4 MBAM
3) AB4 ABarr
4) AB4 AM
5) Any combination of 2-4 that only stacks to AB3 or less.
If you don't link it, I'll look it up later tonight, but not going to have access to EJ for a while.
I agree that using numbers at 71 isn't going to give you accurate results for a rotation at 80. But the point was more that there isn't a single hard-and-fast answer to it, unless you can theorycraft that it's not level/gear-dependent.
I still think it's a shame that the Wowhead community generally doesn't take more effort to build up its own theorycrafting hub. Over in the Paladin forums, despite our reputation for facerolling, all of the regulars take pride in being able to do our own theorycrafting and math work from scratch, rather than just linking someone else's work. EJ isn't always 100% accurate, and they've been proved wrong in the past.
Post by
AtotehZ
IIRC, the DPS order (and mana efficiency reverse order) is:
1) AB4 then continue to AB spam
2) AB4 MBAM
3) AB4 ABarr
4) AB4 AM
5) Any combination of 2-4 that only stacks to AB3 or less.
Mana efficiency in the reversed order is a load of bull. Out of those 4 number 2) is the most mana efficient since MBAM is free and does more dps than AM which has a mana cost.
Even so ill be following this post because this is the exact thing i've been asking myself
AB4 ABarr or
AB4 AM
Until now i've been using AB4 ABarr since i figured the casttime would outweigh the dps i could get from stacking AB again and hopefully get a MBAM.
My mana saving rotation is 2-3 AB then ABarr/AM no matter if MB procced. Only situations im forced into this rotation is if i've been doing 1) too soon or if i failed at evocation timing.
Post by
Squishalot
Mana efficiency in the reversed order is a load of bull. Out of those 4 number 2) is the most mana efficient since MBAM is free and does more dps than AM which has a mana cost.
Yeah, sorry, I meant that generally, (1) is the most expensive, (5) is the cheapest, (2)-(4) are in between.
Until now i've been using AB4 AB since i figured the casttime would outweigh the dps i could get from stacking AB again and hopefully get a MBAM.
Yeah, I've been wondering that too - what do you do if you get MB procs after your Arcane Barrage? Two people in my thread asking the question gave opposing answers to it. I'm planning on looking it up when I get out of work.
Post by
524425
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
nickseng
First of all, apologies to the OP, since the post the OP quoted has not been updated since ever.
Second of all, regarding the question of
1. AB4 ABarr
vs.
2. AB4 AM
, if MBarr doesn't proc.
(1) will always do more dps, but in the long run, it will also cost you more mana than (2).
There are a couple of rationales for using (2) over (1) in a standard rotation, in addition to the mana efficiency reason stated above.
For one, when we're chain casting, we usually do not stop to check whether an effect has procced or not. We simply cast the procced effect after the next cast. What this means for an Arcane is that we usually do not wait until the 4th AB has finished casting to find if MBarr has procced or not, we just clear if with whatever spells we're going to use.
If we automatically clear it with AM regardless, then there's less chance of a wasted MBarr proc.
IMHO, though, it's up to you to decide if you want to clear with AM or ABarr. For me, I like ABarr, so I tend to use it to clear the stacks, though I haven't had MBarr not procc for me after the 5th or 6th cast, so I tend to use it only on movement.
Post by
Squishalot
Nick, thanks for the clarification.
After the 4th cast while chain casting, you'll know whether MB has proc'd after 3. So if it hasn't, you've got a 60% chance of launching an unproc'd AM, and a 40% chance of launching ABarr and wasting the MB proc.
Anyway, what's your opinion on launching MBAM without AB stacks, in the event that MB procs on ABarr? Is it better to fire without the AB bonus, or should you build up AB and enjoy a guaranteed MB proc?
Post by
nickseng
Well, without the T10 bonus, you should not be using MBarr proc without any AB stacks. Take time to build up the stacks.
Remember though, MBarr procs now only lasts 6 seconds, so you might not have enough time to build all 4 stacks of AB before the procs stack, so it's not guaranteed that you'll have an MBarr proc by 4th stack.
With the T10 bonus, Rawr recommends you to cast MBarr even without any AB stacks (ABSpam04MBAM)
In all honesty, the talks about which spells to clear the stacks is mostly theoritical, and doesn't occur that often anyway. I always cast AB up to 6 times (if it doesn't proc by 4), and by then, the chance of MBarr not proccing is really, really slim (~0.08%). I mostly use ABarr during movements.
Post by
DerrHans
MBarr procs now only lasts 6 seconds, so you might not have enough time to build all 4 stacks of AB before the procs stack, so it's not guaranteed that you'll have an MBarr proc by 4th stack.
When did they changed that as my MBarr proc stays up for 14sec ?
Or is this coming in 3.3.2 ? Can't seem to find this anywhere ?
I know AB debuff stays for 6 sec, maybe u mixed them up ?
Post by
nickseng
When did they changed that as my MBarr proc stays up for 14sec ?
Or is this coming in 3.3.2 ? Can't seem to find this anywhere ?
I know AB debuff stays for 6 sec,
maybe u mixed them up
?
D'oh.
*slithers out in shame*
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