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Another armor penetration thread. Just need some honest opinions.
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Post by
320682
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Post by
Heckler
If you're right at the breakpoint between arpen and agi, you won't see any difference statistically ny switching, that's why it's called the breakpoint. ArP just scales much faster AFTER the breakpoint. If you wanna see ArP have a decent-sized impact on your DPS, wait until you can reach the hard cap of 1400 (either passively or with your proc) before switching.
If you do it with the proc, the effect won't be as noticeable as if you do it passively. If you switched right now, you'd probably see a loss in DPS. The whole "soft cap + trinket proc" thing only really works if you're actually capped during the proc.
ArP is exponential in benefit, meaning, you wanna be capped to see its full potential.
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404185
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320682
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415932
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Post by
yodadoe
Using toskk's calc it keeps showing me strength items being near the top of the list, I always thought strength was a not so good stat for kitty's is that true? Some strength dps stuff goes for next to no dkp in my guild.
Strength is very near Agility in usefulness to us. It used to be BETTER than agility, before Primal Gore. So if you see a Strength Ring that is going to go to waste and it's a higher item-level than the agility piece you are wearing, go for it!
Post by
yodadoe
to the original poster: This whole ArP thing is confusing because the way ArP works. To put it in simple terms, it scales in a linear fashion -- very intuitive. Each point of ArP you have increases the armor ignored on your target whether it be you first or last point of ArP. It does NOT suffer any Diminishing Returns. Agility does suffer from Diminishing Returns... so as your gear level goes up and you have more and more of both Agility and ArP on your gear (before gems), each additional point of Agility is worth less and less, while each point of ArP is worth the same. So at higher gear levels, like 245+, you get more DPS from ArP... until you reach the cap of 100% armor ignored.
And yes, the tipping points given by RAWR and Toskk's do take into account the extra combo points and everything.
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415932
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Post by
320682
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Post by
Heckler
To put it in simple terms, it scales in a linear fashion -- very intuitive. Each point of ArP you have increases the armor ignored on your target whether it be you first or last point of ArP. It does NOT suffer any Diminishing Returns.
Since the damage reduction from armor DOES suffer diminishing returns (1000 armor adds less reduction if you already have 30,000 armor than if you had 10,000), ArP scales in a "progressive returns" fashion, where each point of ArP is
more
powerful than the previous point.
This is the reason that ArP is really crappy in low amounts, but near-OP when Capped. In order to make it even remotely balanced at the hard cap, it must
necessarily
be underpowered in small amounts.
Post by
Aadramelekh
Wait, wait... Agility does suffer from Diminishing Returns...WHAT? Please enlighten me - exactly HOW does agility suffer from any kind of diminishing return effect?
AlsoStrength is very near Agility in usefulness to us. It used to be BETTER than agility, before Primal Gore.NO. Strength used to be better than agility in the beginning ot WotLK, when Savage Roar provided a 40% increase in Attack Power. After Savage Roar was changed to +30% to all damage, Agility came back to being the top DPS stat simply because it provides a balanced say to increase both AP and crit at the same time.
I was thinking along the line of a weapon, as I am far behind in that area, a nice strength mace but i prolly have the same chance at that as i do an agility one with the damn hunters rolling on every weapon that drops.
Until you start getting close to the melee swings crit cap, it is not worth thinking about strength maces. You should get an agility weapon (staff or polearm), and preferably the highest ilvl you can find (for the raw amount of FAP it provides).
If you are worth your salt as a DPS, you should either beat or at least compete head to head with any of those hunters you mentioned that can roll on staves or polearms. You should make an argument that such a weapon is much more useful for you than it is for them. Their main weapon is the ranged one (bow, crossbow, gun), while the melee weapon is useful simply for the stats on it. On the other hand, your weapon directly helps you through its DPS besides its raw stats, since FAP is calculated based on weapon DPS. Hunters can also dual wield one handed weapons, they can use 2H Swords and Axes, they have a much wider range of choices. Staves and / or Polearms should be prioritized to feral druids (mark my words again, those that are really worth their weight in DPS).
As a side note, any Paladin, Death Knight or Warrior that rolls on a polearm over a feral druid should be kicked in the balls for even thinking about this.
The only reason for which you should be considering strenght pieces (cloaks / rings / weapons) over agility pieces is once you are at the crit soft cap of ~72% (this is the cap for melee swings if you are hit and expertise capped) and more agility (and crit rating for that matter) won't provide you with full benefit. Aftrer this treshold, if you are also using armor penetration soft cap + trinket OR going close to the passive hard cap, pure Strength becomes more valuable. Because it is multiplied by talents and kings, and also the AP it provides is multiplied by cat form talents. Basically, 1 point of strength gives you 2.376 AP in cat form. With Kings, it gives you 2.613 AP. Also haste becomes valuable once you are at the crit cap and also the closer you are to the armor pen hard cap (preferably passive), because melee swings will hit faster and with full penetration, making up a huge portion of total damage done (also another argument in favor of haste would be more clearcast procs).
But until you have a clear shot at the armor penetration hard cap (either with trinket or all passive), agility should provide better DPS up to the soft crit cap (72%). After this, focus on strength and / or haste. Once you can get soft arp cap + trinket or at least ~1100 passive armor penetration (including food and elixir if you like), focus on maxing out arp, then return to your priority: 72% crit and then AP/haste. But such a gear setup requires quite a lot of high level gear, mostly lvl 264 or higher.
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320682
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