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Blizzard: Arena was the biggest mistake in the history of WoW
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Post by
goshadstep2lose
\When I say things like "
I generally enjoy most PvP
, I just don't like the cage matches that are arena"
You seem to be under the impression that I love BGs
arenas took a not-so-great PvP system and made it even worse
Separating PvP out from the rest of the game through instancing was bad enough when they did it for BGs
when I say "instanced PvP is a bad idea"
I don't know how much clearer I can make my position.
you can start by not contradicting yourself every post
Post by
259957
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
goshadstep2lose
It's obvious Gnostik likes world pvp like many other people do,he dislikes bg and hates arena, is it so hard to understand or are you too ignorant to see? its hard to understand for a few reasons
1) he said pvp in general, world pvp =/= pvp in general as it is a VERY small minority when it comes to pvp and 99% of the time is server dependent
2) World PvP when it does happen, follows the same tenants of arenas (not goal driven; kill the other players), on a much more balanced playing field (matchmaking, always XvX, shadowsight to prevent rogue tag, etc.).
3)The only argument you could muster for why world PvP is superior is its random spontaneity, but that reason in an of itself isn't enough to turn ones opinion of a style of PvP from worst to greatest
4) Its much more likely that a hatred of sandbox arenas and a love for world PvP stems from the need to have the extra room to flee, or the lack of arena regulations that prevent unfair fights.
Many people hate glorified sandbox duels, in fact so many that even given the best gear possible only 4% of wower do it, compare to god knows how many that does bg or world pvp back in the days. yes you read that earlier in the thread
How you ever turn the "I hate sandbox duel" mentality into "I just hate pvp" i have no idea, bravo on that one. go throught that 1-4 up there step by step, and perhaps a parent or gaurdian could read them with you so you understand them better?
Lastly, go ask any arena player if he do it for the gear or the achievement/fun/rating. I dont need to, logic dictates that they do it for fun, but if you are looking for evidence contrary to that, Id get started talking to gladiators now
It's hilarious that people who hate the idea of arena are instantly branded noobs who can't pvp. You know whats really hilarious? those noobs attempting to defend themselves
c wut i did thur?
Post by
Arathian
Wow = Arena,
If they remove arena all the serious players will do as me and:
/lol
/wowquit
There are 3 types in Wow,
- The PvE'ers, most of them real geeks, those people are the reason i can't tell any1 in my environment irl that i play wow. it has a ridiculously bad name.
- The regular players, do the first few raids and some BG's and get 800 rating in arena, those people usually have the most of a life irl.
- The high end arena players, they play wow like the beautiful game it is, skill>gear.
Arena is the most fun thing in wow, please don't remove it blizz =)
Crying and plugging out eyes because of the sheer idiocy of a guy in the interwebz is normal guys?
Okeeeeeey,lemme explain it to you in simple terms as you don't seem so smart.
Most "serious" players in WoW play PvE. WoW is a PvE-consetrated game,get over it. The many serious PvP persons would propably QQ,and rightfully so,arenas are a part of the game they enjoy.
The vast majority of people do PvE, so the regular 80 goes to farm ToC,not bg's. The guys that farm bg's are people that have, usually, already main's PvE'ng and made a toon solely for PvP (kinda like me and my dk) And calling all PvE's geeks makes you look bad and generalising idiot.
And for you last arguement: Cause Grand crusader 25 needs 0 skillz,rite? I bet that with all your skills combined you won't achieve that.
Arenas are cool,fun to pass your time etc. but i don't think they should be the focus on PvP,bg's should be. I support the rated-bg's.
Post by
269869
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
goshadstep2lose
If Arenas are a test of skill, please tell me why there are only 3 teams in the top 40 pairs with a lock in them? Looks like plenty of what I said last year holds true.
wow, I didn't grasp the full amount of your statistic spinning until just now
Locks are the #3 most represented class in top end arenas right now at 12%
.
..
...
....
.....
meanwhile rogues are #8 at 5% representation
yea it looks like everything you said last year still holds true
I'm clearly struggling to even preform at an average level with my class, but instead of learning how to play it I am going to spend all my time and effort trying to get blizz to nerf my counter class
Post by
Gnostik
I'll just spell it out, and then stop going on at length about my personal preferences:
1. As a general rule I enjoy PvP combat in MMORPGs, given that it is farily balanced and has good pacing, complexity, etc. (WoW meets these criteria.)
2. I personally would prefer world PvP that is goal-directed and influences the game world somehow: meaningful battles on a front that exists
in the game world
, and knowledge on the part of the combatants as to
why they are fighting
(e.g. this clan of Murlocs burned down my family's village, etc.)
3. While I would prefer (2) to an instanced PvP system, just because PvP is instanced doesn't mean I don't like it. (This is the part you can't seem to comprehend. It
is
, however, possible for someone to enjoy an activity, yet still hold reservations or have complaints about certain aspects of that activity. This fact is usually lost on most WoW forum posters. "If you don't like it find a different game!" etc.)
4. Instancing and BGs have absolutely nothing to do with how I feel about arena. My complaints about arena stand on their own, without needing comparison to any other specific form of PvP.
--
Not only should (3) not be hard to understand, I'd wager that nearly everyone who plays this game has some complaints about it. If you had to love everything about a game to play it, nobody would be playing anything. In terms of the actual combat dynamics and back-and-forth of PvP, WoW is a huge success in my book. I am simply questioning whether arenas are the best venue for that combat. It is an anti-arena position, not a pro-BG or pro-world PvP position. You are trying to pin me to some positive argument, but I am only making a negative one*.
Now obviously I did just say I prefer a certain type of world PvP system. But WoW's is not that system. So no, to be clear, I am not saying "WoW's World PvP > BGs and Arena." I actually prefer instanced BGs to the haphazard world PvP like what used to take place in Hillsbrad, where there is no objective other than to endlessly zerg the other side.
World PvP doesn't have to be that way, but it is in WoW cuz they didn't design any system. We did get a tacked-on half-solution in the form of Halaa and similar zones; but the implementation basically sucked.
*I realize that at this point I have gotten far from what he was saying in the original article. My impression is they just have a problem with the balancing act between arena and PvE, not the format itself. But, meh.
Post by
goshadstep2lose
2. I personally would prefer world PvP that is goal-directed and influences the game world somehow: meaningful battles on a front that exists
in the game world
, and knowledge on the part of the combatants as to
why they are fighting
(e.g. this clan of Murlocs burned down my family's village, etc.) so how does instancing affect these stories? blizz has gone out of their way to give a story to every BG and even a pseudo story to Arenas. Instancing just makes the design easier taking into account world scaling issues, balancing issues, etc, which very few people would consider less important than slight rp issues (but as i have insinuated and outright declared before is that there is probably an underlying cause to this issue you take with instancing which you refuse to admit)
3. While I would prefer (2) to an instanced PvP system, just because PvP is instanced doesn't mean I don't like it. (This is the part you can't seem to comprehend.
when I say "instanced PvP is a bad idea"
you like bad ideas?
Nope, I don't comprehend, because like a normal person, I dont like bad ideas
It
is
, however, possible for someone to enjoy an activity, yet still hold reservations or have complaints about certain aspects of that activity. This fact is usually lost on most WoW forum posters. "If you don't like it find a different game!" etc.) the issue is that you have so many reservations about it its hard to believe why you bother with wow at all
4. Instancing and BGs have absolutely nothing to do with how I feel about arena. My complaints about arena stand on their own, without needing comparison to any other specific form of PvP. except that from the beginning of this discussion you have compared arenas to other forms of PvP
a "Jeopardy" system, as opposed to a straight up grind
--
For example the use and countering of powerful long-term cooldowns becomes hugely important.
--
Anyone who has been in both venues knows that LoS is far more important in the small confines of the arena than it is in the BGs. Id like to take this opportunity to point out something i missed the first time around- Arenas are scaled almost perfectly to the ratio of players per space as BGs are. The "death boxes" have more than enough room to move around, but no matter where you go losing will be an issue (well not necessarily, but if you know how to PvP you know that you wil WANT to be able to los) as the PvP is based on killing the other player not <insert BG goal here>
Not only should (3) not be hard to understand, I'd wager that nearly everyone who plays this game has some complaints about it. sure but have so many and such an issue with them you feel the need to complain about it on forums for the games. There is a word for people like that- griefer.
In terms of the actual combat dynamics and back-and-forth of PvP, WoW is a huge success in my book. a third party reading your posts would come to a very different conclusion.
It is an anti-arena position, not a pro-BG or pro-world PvP position. You are trying to pin me to some positive argument, but I am only making a negative one*. your stance has been foggy at best, exemplified by your next statement
Now obviously I did just say I prefer a certain type of world PvP system. But WoW's is not that system. So no, to be clear, I am not saying "WoW's World PvP > BGs and Arena." I actually prefer instanced BGs to the haphazard world PvP like what used to take place in Hillsbrad, where there is no objective other than to endlessly zerg the other side.
I am simply questioning whether arenas are the best venue for that combat. Rated BGs have been on blizzards drawing boards for
awhile
but they had neither the resources or experience to implement them effectively. Arenas were blizzards sophomoric attempt at this, becuase they were the simplest and most effective way to introduce this tier/ladder concept to PvP.
They had
alot
of issues (they still have some) and required
alot
of balancing. But, because they were so popular the design team went thought the trouble of making it work (and it was a "major headache" to quote Pardo). In the process, they learned alot about ranking, their classes, and PvP balancing in general (can anyone here make the argument that classes would be as balanced as they are today without the introduction of arenas? I'd love to see it).
So my meta-argument stands: arenas are currently blizzards only effective way of gauging a players skill in PvP. And its no secret that Blizz holds skill in higher regard than alot of free time.
And if grinding is more your cup of tea,
you do need to find a new MMO
, not because I disagree with you, not because blizzard doesn't like you, but because you don't like the way the game is evolving. Blizzard isn't going change the game to appease the minority at the expense of the majority, they kinda have this thing for money.
Post by
Vannen
I'm not sure about everybody else, but I find the "pick the other guy's post apart word by word and then try to counter each with snide remarks and/or barely applicable logic" style to be a very ineffective and frankly immature way of going about a civilized debate. If you can not craft your ideas into a semicoherent argument with some degree of continuity, then maybe it's not worth sharing. That being said, I think that you all have good arguments that, if you keep a nice civil tone about it, might actually serve to inform the readers of this forum.
And stop insulting each other with things from completely different threads. It's once again immature and just inciting a flame war, er, continuing it.
yea it looks like everything you said last year still holds true
I'm clearly struggling to even preform at an average level with my class, but instead of learning how to play it I am going to spend all my time and effort trying to get blizz to nerf my counter class
That's you goshad
Post by
TheSmite
Lol, QQ moar is all i have to say. Just becuase you're bad at it doesnt mean its a bad thing. You want to do BGs untill you get gear, because you dont understand the concept of concentrated skill. Tell me where skill plays in when you and 7 other people jump one guy. Pvp was tact on by blizzard, and for all the headaches its caused its worked. If you're bad at it, stop doing it. Plain and simple. It takes real skill to do arena, and if you're bad and cant then step up to some NPCs and talk !@#$ to them. Seriously, its pathetic. Also for all of you talking about rated battlegrounds. You have no clue whats in store for you, and you'll be #$%^&ing about that and missing arena then too. Dont be stupid, stop complaining every chance you get just because someone comes around and gives you a boost of confidence. The more i hear you scrubbies talking about how bad it is, the more it shows how bad you are. Truth and the fact is, if you're good at something you enjoy it, if you're bad, you QQ. So if you were bad at eating, money says you'd be dead right now.
Post by
320717
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Vannen
I wouldn't have a problem with it either, but it just looks to me that most of his quips are personal attacks rather than addressing an issue, or doing a combination thereof, which makes for an annoying read.
Post by
320717
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
319099
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
Too much drama and QQ. I don't have enough patience to read this thread thru.
Post by
goshadstep2lose
yea it looks like everything you said last year still holds true
I'm clearly struggling to even preform at an average level with my class, but instead of learning how to play it I am going to spend all my time and effort trying to get blizz to nerf my counter class
That's you goshad
yes, thats every arugment i've ever made on these forums ever in a nutshell... your class is OP and its the reason I suck at the game
please, please, please, if you are going to speak with such authority on the flamewar do your
research
first
I didn't invite chantress here, and every post he has made in this thread have clearly been about his left over feelings from last year rather the issue of arenas and their effect on pvp.
At least I have made an effort to stay on subject
Post by
goshadstep2lose
(although I agree the point made about a post he made last year was a little over the top)
The point about the comment from last year was directed at chantress, who is only here because of what happened last year. Feel free to browse his post history and see if you dont come to the exact same conclusion about what he has to say.
As for Gnostic I have no issue with him personally In fact I am responding to him specifically because he is the on that has made by far the best and most comprehensive arguments against arena, saving myself the trouble of responding to everyone in the thread.
Any !@#$ing on his posts i've done comes from my tendancy to be a jerk, dont get me wrong we both disagree with each other, that much is clear
Post by
Gnostik
EDIT: Saw this on the AJ thread regarding the same topic, had to reprint it cuz it sums up my feelings perfectly, and is pretty funny:
Arenas were a good idea; making them the focal point of PvP was not.
The war effort is... to convince goblins to let us wear their clothes?
Yawn.
Anyway....
It is an anti-arena position, not a pro-BG or pro-world PvP position. You are trying to pin me to some positive argument, but I am only making a negative one*.
your stance has been foggy at best
You are probably right. But a human being's feelings toward something are not always a binary love/hate like/dislike. Things are usually a little more complicated, and I think we all understand what it's like to have mixed feelings toward something.
I will backtrack a bit and take back my statement that instancing PvP is a "bad idea". It has good and bad implications, and when I said it was a bad idea I was really just expressing an opinion. I personally don't like instancing period, for PvP
or
dungeons. However, I'm fully aware of its benefits. It's probably the easiest way to make sure every player has a balanced encounter to participate in whenever they want, though at the cost of breaking the continuity of the game world. I'm also well aware that most players don't put a very high value on things like continuity or immersion. So I really have no interest in arguing the merits or drawbacks of instancing per se. I was just expressing my opinion on it.
Anyway, I have had mixed feelings toward every MMO I have played, and I doubt anyone has played a game that they had no complaints about. But it would only make sense to quit a game and move on if your level of dissatisfaction came to be greater than the enjoyment you get out of the game.
Now if someone is on a message board complaining about a game, but they still play that game, which is it more reasonable to assume?
1. This person still enjoys the game enough to play, though he or she has complaints about the game.
2. This person hates the game so much that he or she doesn't even enjoy playing, yet he or she still plays.
While it's obviously much more reasonable to assume that (1) is the case, as most people are not masochists who constantly do things they hate, most WoW forum posters jump to the conclusion that it must be (2). This person must be some kind of weirdo for continuing to do something he hates! Yeah,
that
makes sense....
Also, you seem to think it says something about my level of dissatisfaction that I'm complaining on a message board, but I don't see why. I have always posted on message boards for the games I play, on a variety of topics. Most of them aren't QQ posts.
Post by
248538
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Post by
326089
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