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Blizzard: Arena was the biggest mistake in the history of WoW
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Post by
484496
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gnostik
If Blizzard hadn't designed their PvP system so that the best gear came from arena, then they would never have felt so much pressure to balance it perfectly. The gear system also immediately made arenas into the "real" PvP, turning BGs and world PvP (ha) into second-class endeavors.
I have beeing playing MMOs for a long time, and I've always enjoyed PvP more than PvE. WoW's arena system is one of the worst PvP schemes I've ever run into. Separating PvP out from the rest of the game through instancing was bad enough when they did it for BGs. But arenas took a not-so-great PvP system and made it even worse.
In addition to the gear system, the rating system is ... quirky, to say the least. Giving out PvP rewards based on a points system where you fall behind when you lose (i.e. a "Jeopardy" system, as opposed to a straight up grind) may be the single worst idea I can think of for MMO PvP. It is probably this factor that most makes me hate arena.
By all means, have some "ladder" or ranking system. But don't have a system where damage-dealing characters do incredible burst, you throw two small teams into a cage to see who can blow the other one up quickest, and then you rate them on that factor. Fighting other players in an online fantasy game involves so many variables, that your wins and losses in these matches might not mean very much.
True, over many weeks a team's rating will probably say something about their skill. But what about the player who has a latency problem, or the one who can't find the right partner, etc.? An arena rating in WoW may say something significant about your skill in PvP - or it may not. Personally I find the "grind" of a straight up honor accumulation over a number of weeks to be less daunting than the idea that if I don't do great in these cage matches I may end up languishing in terms of PvP progression.
And that's just it: in the end, WoW's arenas are a very specific and arbitrary type of PvP. It has certain implications that may or not be good. For example the use and countering of powerful long-term cooldowns becomes hugely important. But if I had to pick out one consequence that I probably hate most it's line-of-sight. The fact that most arena matches turn into a pillar-humping session for healers while I, as a range DPS, am constantly fighting just to keep LoS ... well, it's just the opposite of fun for me.
The actual
combat
dynamics of WoW's PvP system I really enjoy (even if I think burst is a bit too high right now.) The pacing and level of complexity are, I think, just about right. But then they go and force you into these death matches if you want the highest achievements. Why? Keep them around for those that want them. But get rid of the gear system that makes them the "real" PvP.
---
TL;DR:
Arenas suck because of the rating system and because of the weird stuff it emphasizes like LoS. Yet it's the only way to get the best PvP gear.
Post by
Lecks
I've been an avid fan of World PvP and BG's for years and I don't agree with the sentiment that Arena is an effective way to judge skill. It
is
an effective way to screw up other, more easily balanced aspects of the game though.
As far as competitive PvP goes, introducing Arenas was the wrong choice
for WoW
. For games where the classes are less diverse it can work, it just won't work for this one.
Edit: And /agree with Gnostic.
Post by
234331
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
goshadstep2lose
If Blizzard hadn't designed their PvP system so that the best gear came from arena, then they would never have felt so much pressure to balance it perfectly. The gear system also immediately made arenas into the "real" PvP, turning BGs and world PvP (ha) into second-class endeavors. The only close to sound argument you make, but blizz will be adding rated BGs in cataclysm so its a moot point
but arguing that BGs are such a far-cry from arenas is another Fail arguement, because, guess what, if you aren't preforming well in rated arenas then you wont preform well in rated BGs either
I have beeing playing MMOs for a long time, and I've always enjoyed PvP more than PvE. WoW's arena system is one of the worst PvP schemes I've ever run into. Separating PvP out from the rest of the game through instancing was bad enough when they did it for BGs. But arenas took a not-so-great PvP system and made it even worse. arguing that BGs were a bad Idea because of instancing? whats wrong with making easy to get to PvP, that is number balanced (which is rare in world PvP), and goal driven?
be honest, its the balance that you don't like isn't it?
In addition to the gear system, the rating system is ... quirky, to say the least. Giving out PvP rewards based on a points system where you fall behind when you lose (i.e. a "Jeopardy" system, as opposed to a straight up grind) may be the single worst idea I can think of for MMO PvP. It is probably this factor that most makes me hate arena. because players with skill are rewarded better than players with alot of time on their hands? Get over it, WoW prides itself on being such a mainstream MMO
By all means, have some "ladder" or ranking system. But don't have a system where damage-dealing characters do incredible burst, you throw two small teams into a cage to see who can blow the other one up quickest, and then you rate them on that factor. Fighting other players in an online fantasy game involves so many variables, that your wins and losses in these matches might not mean very much. this point right here give alot of weight to my "Arena griefers just suck at PvP" argument; it is clear that you have never been in an arena game beyond 500 (1500 pre 3.1) based on your understanding of how the games work. Double dps is far from a super successful comp, and
pvp in general
hasn't been about "incredible burst" since 2.1 (with the exception of 3.0). Also there are just as many variables in arena games as there are in any other aspect of the game, if not more (because thats what happens when you put the best of the best into a box and have them try and outplay each other)
True, over many weeks a team's rating will probably say something about their skill. But what about the player who has a latency problem, poor latency will also ruin BG senarios as well as boss fights- why would arenas be any different?
or the one who can't find the right partner or the one who makes up constant excuses for his lack of skill?
there are 12 million people who play wow, trust me its not hard to find the right person
An arena rating in WoW may say something significant about your skill in PvP - or it may not. Personally I find the "grind" of a straight up honor accumulation over a number of weeks to be less daunting than the idea that if I don't do great in these cage matches I may end up languishing in terms of PvP progression. I fail to see your point
grinding =/= skill
And that's just it: in the end, WoW's arenas are a very specific and arbitrary type of PvP. not any more specific or arbitrary than BGs
For example the use and countering of powerful long-term cooldowns becomes hugely important. It always has been, that's pvp
But if I had to pick out one consequence that I probably hate most it's line-of-sight. LoS has always been a major part of PvP, remember that BG that was a flat area with no hazards? yea no you don't
The fact that most arena matches turn into a pillar-humping session for healers while I, as a range DPS, am constantly fighting just to keep LoS ... well, it's just the opposite of fun for me. Arena Pro tip #1: You don't always have to focus the healers in fact with many comps its the opposite
The actual
combat
dynamics of WoW's PvP system I really enjoy (even if I think burst is a bit too high right now.) you can get plenty of resil by just grinding BGs sorry
The pacing and level of complexity are, I think, just about right. But then they go and force you into these death matches if you want the highest achievements. Why? no one is forcing you to have the best gear, especially if you don't have the skill to get it
you know why the 7k dps gets into the pug because he has 251 gear while the 6k dps misses out because of his 245 gear? because the 7k dps has the skill to do ToGC
Keep them around for those that want them. But get rid of the gear system that makes them the "real" PvP.
The best gear will always be awarded to the best players not the ones with the most time on their hands, that's warcraft
TLDR: it looks like you need to mind another MMO
Post by
Solenar
Blizzard wont cut arena, they want to get money..If they delete arenas they will lose half of WoW population..me included =D
Post by
chase123
Blizzard wont cut arena, they want to get money..If they delete arenas they will lose
half of WoW population
..me included =D
Barely 4% of the WoW population even participate in arenas. They wouldnt be losing that many people.
Post by
goshadstep2lose
Blizzard wont cut arena, they want to get money..If they delete arenas they will lose
half of WoW population
..me included =D
Barely 4%
of the WoW population even participate in arenas. They wouldnt be losing that many people.
Post by
56791
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Post by
468487
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112324
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Post by
142942
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Post by
goshadstep2lose
And now for the other extreme
Wow =/= Arena fixed
- The PvE'ers, most of them real geeks, those people are the reason i can't tell any1 in my environment irl that i play wow. it has a ridiculously bad name. You are level 80 playing an MMO who, by your own word, excels at one part of the game. Even more so- you are on a forum dedicated to said game posting your opinions about it.
You are also a nerd, a closet nerd, which makes you a tool.
I'd rather be a nerd than a tool any day of the week.
Post by
248538
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Post by
goshadstep2lose
What a pleasant surprise, since you have trouble picking up on sarcasm chantress, i will kindly put the painfully obvious in parentheses after the sarcasm for your reading pleasure
If Arenas are a test of skill, please tell me why there are only 3 teams in the top 40 pairs with a lock in them? 1) who cares about twos? not relevant to the discussion as you cant even get the best gear with them anymore
2) probably the same reason there are only 3 shamans or 3 hunters, The setup of a random ass cross section like top 40 (lol 40?) is a constantly changing RNG as the teams tend to move, check back in a couple of weeks, it will have changed again
3) I lol'd irl when you gerrymandered the hell out of your statistics like that and think that i wouldnt check "wow only a 7.5% representation In the top 40? that would be terrible if -checks again- Ah! its really a 17% representation in the top 100"
4) In an unrelated note- "DOOD did you know that locks have a 0% representation in the top 4! BUFF BUFF BUFF"
Looks like plenty of what I said last year holds true. you mean that thread about your constant QQ over rogues? yea... how is that relevant? (its not)
that isnt what this thread is about, go push your crap on the lock forums you may get some of that agreement you are looking for there? (you won't)
Pillar humping is just crap CRAP CRAP CRAP. seriously, I wonder if Ali had wanted a pillar in his last fight with frasier because 'the mouth' knew he was finally facing a better boxer than he was? yes, except if your analogy were to work, one of the boxers would have to NOT be melee since melee arent infamous for pillar humping... nice try though (not really)
and again you to try and demolish someone's argument but again it didn't work. yea i guess i Just didn't demolish that analogy either (why you copping out bro?)
Burst does rule all - resilience does not negate burst, it only helps. this is all the evidence I need to point out you lack of arena experience and therefore discredit any of your expert (lol) opinions...
but wheres the fun in that?
the game has been utterly dumbed down now and WOTLK up until this point has commonly known as world of meleecraft.
wait wait wait... did you just go on a tirade about how pillar humping was ruining pvp and then turn around and say that melee was? You cannot support both those arguments simultaneously
(you are trying to hard to make buddy-buddy with the other poster)
And errr, just so you know, there ARE some people who can't find a good partner. translation= I can't find anyone to carry me
Please try and lose your arrogance. It wasn't attractive last year, its not attractive this year. you say that like i would care about the opinion of someone who has an e-bo
ner for me. (dont make your butthurt too obvious)
And just FYI, claiming me as a trophy? lol. Your arrogance is unbounded. I would rather be arrogant than wrong any day of the week, but that's how I am
Your arguments utterly failed to change my mind. Just so you know. And it's clearly out of spite, which is all you have left (joke about how you already have run out of arguments)
I'm not out to change your mind, I'm out to change the mind of the neutrals.
tldr
: Its clear by your response that you have no real opinion as it was more about your feelings for me; this isn't about rogues
not
being overpowered, this is about the linked article and peoples responses to it
Post by
jefflovealex
This post has massively deteriorated from the original point. People don't like pvp and want to pve. But because arena has balancing issues their pve specs are nerfed because of the unbalance caused in arena.
I enjoy the odd arena match from time to time. But i don't like the idea my character is going to take a cracking on certain talents in order to allow fair play arena.
My 2 cents. Or 2 penny's because i am british.
Post by
468487
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Post by
319099
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Post by
486912
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Post by
goshadstep2lose
You are the ignorant one goshad...you are basically saying if you play a video game you are a "nerd"... WRONG i am basically saying if you excel at a video game (an
mmo
no less) and on an internet forum posting about your skills in said game (or just posting in general) you are to some extent a nerd
keep trying to argue around that one though
To the people who say Skill > Gear in arena...try entering arena in your basic hateful/deadly gear against a full geared Furious player, then tell me skill is greater then gear. hahaha, so let me get this straight- you have trouble beating people with a average item level that is only 13 higher?
i think i found your problem champ
The thing I hate is that you HAVE to do PVE Raids in order to get a competitive enough weapon to even start getting high enough for the current seasons PVP weapons. you don't have to, getting to 1800 with ilevel 200 weapons isnt that hard, admittedly harder for melee, but far from impossible
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