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Freedom Fighters? or Terrorists?

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Post by 240135

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Post by MyTie

Were the American colonists who fought against England terrorists?

Post by Adamsm

Post by 240135

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Post by MyTie

I can say the same for them. In the rare circumstances that civilians are killed by the US Military, it is either in unintentional error, or by in extremely rare cases, individuals acting on their own. Comparing the US Military to terrorists is heinous. It's one of the reason I stopped serving the country. I got tired of being insulted. 6 years of my prime, gone. Thousands of others still giving. I feel for the officer that has to make the hard decisions, that sometimes go wrong, but still have to be made. I wouldn't do it. If it were up to me, people of this mentality can fend for themselves.Sorry Mytie, my beliefs aren't meant to insult you..... it's just, if anyone here remembers, a few years back where a pair of American fighter pilots bombed a Canadian force just because the information they were given said it was an Afgahan target... then all they got was a slap on the wrist even though they killed 4 people and injured 8 others. It's soured any and all ideas that the American army is some honorable thing. Like I said, I support the troops, but I sure as hell don't support the power behind it, a power that let those 2 kill 4 allies and nothing happened.

Were the American colonists who fought against England terrorists?In the eyes of Crown? Yes they were.

Slap on the wrist? I don't think they should have even been given that. Pilots are nerds. I've met them. In this case, they probably were given a location in the form of numbers, and ordered to press a series of buttons and switches in a certain order over that location. They did their job as ordered... perfectly. They can't land their jet at every target, get out, and do a background check of the people they are bombing.

And I still support the 'power behind it' even after mistakes like this are made. To abandon the entire military structure and leadership based off of mistakes doesn't make sense. Errors will happen in war. Friendly fire happens. It isn't pretty, but it happens. If we go to war, it will happen again. If we don't go to war, then other unpleasant things will happen. There is no cushioned option. There is no option that makes the flowers bloom and the children laugh.

At the end of the day, someone will end up alone, in a ditch somewhere, with tears in his eyes as he watches blood pour from his body. He will be afraid to die, but he will know he is about to. Making that choice to avoid mass bloodshed by producing limited bloodshed is a HARD decision. I will disagree with it. I don't think there is a reason to go to war in today's world. However, I will not paint our leadership structure as the enemy with wide brushstrokes. I will go after individual leaders for specific reasons, but I generally stay away from blaming the military itself. The people in that military break their backs working every day. Leave them alone or support them. Terrorism and the military are not comparable, ever.

Post by Hyperspacerebel

Were the American colonists who fought against England terrorists?In the eyes of Crown? Yes they were.

Terrorism
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.

If anything, the British government falls more under this definition than the colonists.

Post by MyTie

yep. they were. so what?

The colonists were not inciting terror in England by fighting. They were not, therefore, terrorists. I believe they were fighting for control over their economy. England could have just left, and we would not have followed them there, hiding in the bushes and shooting their kids with muskets.

Post by MyTie

Post by 240135

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Post by 124027

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Post by haggers

Ethnocentrism much?
throwing around random intellectual terms just so your argument sounds more convincing much?
anyway, i looked it up and it basically says that one ethnic group thinks its superior to the other. so very much just a softer form of racism.
concerning this, i require to reread my text and notice i never talked about races, i talked about countries and i think it is allowed and legit to state than one country offers higher quality of life than the other.

Read Guns, Germs and Steel, it should open your eyes to why things in are the way they are in different countries.
"read koran, it should open your eyes to why the western devil must be destroyed."

seriously i'm not going to read a book and then return to post here. all the less when it is probably some conspiracy theory hype american pop culture nonsense.
okay, looking this up too - it says that our culture is more advanced because of the environment. so you are giving the reason why some countries are underdeveloped and zooming the discussion to a much larger focus. what the book says has a good chance of being true - but wasn't this discussion about wether the cause of the terrorists is legit or not? i think the answer for this is on a much smaller timeline than the last 13,000 years.

Also, your definition is too limiting, not all terrorists are or will be anti-West. Look at Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City Bomber- he was a Catholic, white, male. Was he a terrorist, yes, did he want freedom for certain people and to have wealthy countries listen to him? No.
okay, so iraq is not the home for every terrorist in the world. but we are talking about the iraq right now.

besides, the guy you called out was a nazi and very much a madman. he is not a terrorist, he did not want to change anything - he just wanted to kill a large number of people at random because he hates the entire world. he is not like the holy warriors.

The reason why terrorists use IEDs is because you can make a very powerful bomb for roughly 200 USD. The bomb that killed the high ranking members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard was one of these types of bombs. Its not only cheaper, but it is scarier, more effective and you can carry out many of these attacks by yourself or with a couple other people. Face it, some in the Middle East that does these horrible things has more power and sway over someone that tries to go toe to toe with the military.
explanation of paramilitary tactics. no progress for the discussion.

That said, the reason why people in Iraq appear to be religious zealots is that they are simply hiding behind the Koran.
what's the difference? "hiding" any rational thought under the "cloak" of religion is being a zealot to me.

Now, the militia groups that we bought off to fight the extremists are aruging that they helped America out first and therefore, the other people are not true helpers of a free Iraq.
The reason- some of these people were payed large sums of money to convert to our side, and if you are an American leader in Iraq, who do you want to give control of certain regions and oil to- people that have supported your cause, or those that didn't?
So now, we have these groups fighting each other to pretty much thin out the herd and they hope that they can grab as much phat lewtz as possible before American withdraws from Iraq.
not a problem of the terrorists. they do not care for money, only for paradise, right?

And I will leave you with this: one of the reasons that the Taliban are gaining so much ground in Afghanistan, (they control all but like 3 provinces) is that their form of justice, although harsh is at least based off of some sort of rule of law. People are becoming angry at the corruption that they see and how arbitrary courts are becoming. That is IF you can go to a court and argue your case. The people just want something feasible...
Can you blame them?
i can't blame them for wanting justice.
but i do blame them for blowing up hundreds of innocent civilians, may or may not that include themselves.

Post by Adamsm

"read koran, it should open your eyes to why the western devil must be destroyed."I'd suggest you read the Koran before you say something like that, no where in the book does it say "Destroy the USofA and lay waste to the Western world." As stated before, you can take any religion, hell even Bhuddism, and twist it around to something dark and evil. Yes, the 'muslim terrorists' follow a corrupted version of the Koran, but not all believe in that ideal.

Still:
ComeClarity said:
I personally believe that many of them have messed up political views. As Adamsm said, its the outlook you take on it. It's all about perspective; one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Hell, I'm sure there are some people who see General Washington as a terrorist as opposed to a freedom fighter.

Post by MyTie

I have read the Qur'an. Am I a cool kid now?with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasonsDo you remember when I was talking about motives? This is a motive. It was not the intention of the colonists to intimidate or coerce. It was their intention to create a new country, to become free. They were fighting for freedom, not fighting to intimidate and coerce.

Freedom Fighting Motive = Freedom

Terrorism Motive = Coercion and Intimidation (aka terror)

Post by haggers

I love that, 'kill off the dictator' that the US helped put in place, and now the US is trying to set up a puppet goverment to make sure they get first dibs on all that american oil which is somehow under the iraqi sands.
so the oil makes the dictator any less true?
also i doubt the terrorists are just trying to defend their oil.

Ideas are free,
no?
what money pays the experts in infrastructure development, government, politics and law? when last i looked experts weren't exactly free.

but are they actually giving money to rebuild the shattered and destroyed homes/businesses and the like destroyed during the war with the "Iraqi terrorist" enemies?
money will fix it? look how much the development aid helped africa, they are currently deciding to stop it because it destroyed the economy.

And as for the news comment... you mean the american news, where everything is okay and those aren't really the bodies of good men and women being sent home every day or the real news?
i live in germany and watch the german news where war on iraq was critisized heavily from the beginning.

I supports people right to live in peace, and not have some overblown country who thinks they know what is right and wrong, come over and screw up their lives. Yes, the so-called War in Iraq has done some good... but considering the death toll on both sides, it sure as hell ain't a good thing.
nothing is free.
apart from that unpopular fact, i'm not saying that war is a good thing overall. but terrorism is not the answer, it doesn't fix anything and it won't help you negotiate with anyone. this whole situation is not going anywhere until somehow america and iraq decide to work together.

Post by Adamsm

so the oil makes the dictator any less true?
also i doubt the terrorists are just trying to defend their oil.No, I never said Hussian wasn't a dictator, but he was still put into power by the American goverment. And the terrorist aren't.... but the Iraqi freedom fighters would be.

apart from that unpopular fact, i'm not saying that war is a good thing overall. but terrorism is not the answer, it doesn't fix anything and it won't help you negotiate with anyone. this whole situation is not going anywhere until somehow america and iraq decide to work together.Best way for it to start on the road to good relations.... get the Americans out of their country, and stop trying to help. Let the Iraqi's set up their own government, figure out who they want in command that's not a puppet for the Americans, and let them be, pay the right prices for the oil and let them trade with everyone, not just the chosen ones of the Americans.

Post by MyTie

Best way for it to start on the road to good relations.... get the Americans out of their country, and stop trying to help. Let the Iraqi's set up their own government, figure out who they want in command that's not a puppet for the Americans, and let them be, pay the right prices for the oil and let them trade with everyone, not just the chosen ones of the Americans.

Wow. What a very good idea. In a few months, after the strongest crime lord or religious zealot takes over, he can start wiping out everyone who disagrees with him, and exporting his oil to north korea for nukes.

Sometimes I don't think liberals put more than 11 seconds of thought into anything they say, but they will argue the points for hours.

Post by Deepthought

Post by Adamsm

Wow. What a very good idea. In a few months, after the strongest crime lord or religious zealot takes over, he can start wiping out everyone who disagrees with him, and exporting his oil to north korea for nukes.

Sometimes I don't think liberals put more than 11 seconds of thought into anything they say, but they will argue the points for hours.So they can have freedom.... as long as it's freedom under the USA right, as the 52nd or 53rd state or however many their up to now?

I also like how you jump from Iraq to North Korea, but hey, we all know them koreans are the next big terrorist after them muslim folks.

As for your liberal comment... I have no political party; but then again, unlike the states, were actually allowed choices up here in Canada.

Post by MyTie

North Korea:

Some analysts say this nuclear test could be an attempt to shore up the legitimacy of a potentially weakened leader in the eyes of a domestic audienceter·ror·ism (těr'ə-rĭz'əm)
n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons
I also like how you jump from Iraq to North Korea, but hey, we all know them koreans are the next big terrorist after them muslim folks.Actually, it appears, by definition, yes, yes they are.

Do I win now?