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Freedom Fighters? or Terrorists?
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Post by
129077
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Depends on which side your on; look at the US, half the world sees them as no worse then the terrorists they fight, the other half sees them as freedom fighters.
Post by
345274
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
haggers
a freedom fighter is (should be) a responsible, honorable person who fights those that try to bring down the democratic ideals of his country. therefore, a freedom fighter always defends something.
(of course there are shades of grey, so when a freedom fighter starts to be more violent than necessary, he might become a bad freedom fighter. but that is for another topic)
a terrorist is someone who kills innocent civilians on full purpose because he thinks it is the only way he can get any attention from the world. he tries to convince the more wealthy countries to
give him freedom
. (is that even possible?) because he knows the government will not listen to them, he tries to spread fear among the people, so that they in turn may influence the government.
the problem is this. the wealthy countries in the world have achieved their wealth because they built a democratic system that offers you freedom - and luxury, if you are smart enough to make the money. the terrorists live as they always have, but now they have become greedy.
i know there is a lot of debate going on about surpression and so forth. that may even be true, but really it only channels the hate that stems from the poor and religious countries inability to support themselves.
so the definition stands, freedom fighters defend what they have built up. terrorists try to blackmail the more evolved countries into sharing. (instead of realizing that being religious zealots has got them into the position they are in now)
TLDR = if all countries in the world were filled with reasonable westerners, there would be no base for terrorism because the countries would have evolved more instead of remaining on the same level of science surpressing religious zeal that was state of the art some two thousand years ago.
Post by
Adamsm
if all countries in the world were filled with reasonable westerners, there would be no base for terrorism because the countries would have evolved more instead of remaining on the same level of science surpressing religious zeal that was state of the art some two thousand years ago...... I'm sorry but what? Look at the people of the Bible Belt, then compare them to the so-called "Terrorist", only difference? The Bible Belts are white. Seriously, Western society isn't the cream of the crop..... more like the mold on the underside of the world. Between class and race, your boned; if your not white and pretty, you ain't going anywhere in the working world.
Like I said earlier; it's all about perspective: You go to Afghanistan or Iraq and ask them who the Terrorist are.... half of them will tell you the Western Military's who have come in and over thrown their leaderships and seem more intent on fighting a war then cleaning it up, and in the case of one of the leaderships, a certain western country helped to keep him in power for years.
Post by
165617
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
haggers
..... I'm sorry but what? Look at the people of the Bible Belt
do you see how i said "
reasonable
westerners" there? that means no zealots.
then compare them to the so-called "Terrorist", only difference? The Bible Belts are white.
i am very much agreeing that american zealots are in no way better than zealots (read: believers) from any other country. luckily, they don't run the show here. in america, religion is a pretext to make the uneducated masses believe in the rightfulness of the goverment, which bases its own decisions on science, rather than religious irrationality.
notice that government != the people.
in iraq, for instance, this is unfortunately true, at least regarding the level of religious zeal.
Seriously, Western society isn't the cream of the crop..... more like the mold on the underside of the world.
you don't have to be good to be the best. you have to be better than the others.
i think this is an accurate description of our society.
there are still a lot of bad things going on, agree, but you have to admit that we're working on it - one at a time. mankind is still young. trial and error is currently the only way to learn something, on the scale of a society. being negative is not helping. you have to constantly improve, that's how you get somewhere.
Between class and race, your boned; if your not white and pretty, you ain't going anywhere in the working world.
racism is another debate.
also it is by far not one that requires as much analysis as the terror / freedom one.
Like I said earlier; it's all about perspective: You go to Afghanistan or Iraq and ask them who the Terrorist are.... half of them will tell you the Western Military's who have come in and over thrown their leaderships and seem more intent on fighting a war then cleaning it up, and in the case of one of the leaderships, a certain western country helped to keep him in power for years.
because the people are always right?
also do not mistake cause and consequence. america did not
create
these countries. they tried to contain their destructiveness in one way that didn't work, then they tried another. that may be questionable, but it is not the initial cause of the problem.
the initial problem was there from the beginning, a country full of religious zealots that has no proper government and therefore no proper education, health care or even anything like a functioning economy. that is the very thing i am trying to say. western countries have all that, and therefore there is no base for religious zealots turning into holy warriors in them.
TL;DR: science solves problems, religion does not
Post by
Adamsm
you don't have to be good to be the best. you have to be better than the others.
i think this is an accurate description of our society.
there are still a lot of bad things going on, agree, but you have to admit that we're working on it - one at a time. mankind is still young. trial and error is currently the only way to learn something, on the scale of a society. being negative is not helping. you have to constantly improve, that's how you get somewhere.Are they though? I mean, the hunger problems, the homeless problems and the education problems still exist and getting worse each year.
because the people are always right?
also do not mistake cause and consequence. america did not create these countries. they tried to contain their destructiveness in one way that didn't work, then they tried another. that may be questionable, but it is not the initial cause of the problem.In that case? Yes, it's their lands, the Western armies are seen as invaders because they come in, expecting the countries to suddenly shape up and change according to ideas from their home countries.... but without said countries giving money and actual help. So, in cases like that, it's not terrorism, it's them defending their home lands from the invaders, more or less what the US did after 9/11.
that is the very thing i am trying to say. western countries have all that, and therefore there is no base for religious zealots turning into holy warriors in them.Sure... as long as your white rich and well off. Think of how many people are homeless, how the minorities are treated and similar things. And if you don't think there is a base... how many milita's currently exist in the US, the so called cradle of Western Civlization? Those self-same milita's that are on certain terrorist watch groups after all, so it goes back to outlook.
Post by
165617
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Arathian
American revolutionair's were terrorists until they gained their freedom,suddenly they became "freedom fighters"
Same with the guys from the French revolution,the Greek, the <insert country here>.
History is shaped by the winner,not the loser. If we had lost ww2 right now we would have the holy Hitler that saved the world from the evil jews and satanic bastards americans that tried to prevent the perfection of the human gene come true.
We would know with every single detail what attrocities the allies did ( they did plenty tbh) but no one would know what consetration camps were.
Same with terrorists/freedom fighters. They are terrorists for those they fight against as the try to overthrow their order, but freedom fighters for those that they fight for. The winner will decide what the hitory will write
Post by
MyTie
Motive.
Freedom Fighter Motive
= Kill an opposing political force through military might,
to gain control of a region
.
Terrorist Motives
= Slaughter anyone and everyone neccessary, including yourself,
to spread the peaceful message of Allah
.
Post by
Adamsm
Terrorist Motives = Slaughter anyone and everyone neccessary, including yourself, to spread the peaceful message of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.Fixed.
That one can be used for any religion after all.
Or, everyone's favorite:
Terrorist Motives = Slaughter anyone and everyone neccessary, including children and women, to spread the peaceful message of the United States of America as they kill your people to take your oil.
Post by
240135
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Terrorist Motives = Slaughter anyone and everyone neccessary, including yourself, to spread the peaceful message of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.Fixed.
That one can be used for any religion after all.
Or, everyone's favorite:
Terrorist Motives = Slaughter anyone and everyone neccessary, including children and women, to spread the peaceful message of the United States of America as they kill your people to take your oil.
1) It wasn't a group of tie wearing mormons on those planes.
2) I was in the US Military, and I don't remember strapping C4 on myself to blow up any civilians, or teaching children how to do so (see Yassir Arafat).
Post by
haggers
Are they though? I mean, the hunger problems, the homeless problems and the education problems still exist and getting worse each year.
how are you using this as an argument against my point that terrorists exist because of underdeveloped countries?
also it would be very surprising if even the richest country had zero problems.
In that case? Yes, it's their lands, the Western armies are seen as invaders because they come in,
bad thing they killed off that dictator. surely it was better before, when it was basically a murderous royal famiy that reigned the land.
they are giving the people a chance to live in peace. if they don't like democratic governments and have a better suggestion to make, why is no one presenting it? i guess it's just their best guess to try and make the country democratic.
expecting the countries to suddenly shape up and change according to ideas from their home countries....
remember democracy is just a system of power distribution, it says nothing about what opinions are allowed in the government.
but without said countries giving money and actual help.
building up infrastructure and helping to form a government is giving help in my book. please read the news.
So, in cases like that, it's not terrorism, it's them defending their home lands from the invaders,
then why are the killing so many iraqi civilians?
more or less what the US did after 9/11.
9/11 was the very reason america started the war.
you are using that as an example to show why terrorists from the very country that america invaded in retaliation are right to defend against said retaliatory strike?
i mean, one of the two
has
to be wrong. please decide which side you support.
Post by
240135
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
So, you're justifying a war with a completely unrelated act committed by people in a completely different country who weren't even the government of that other country?
It sounds silly. What's even sillier is trying to justify murdering religious zealot terrorism by calling it 'freedom fighting'.a freedom fighter is a type of terrorist that fights for freedom of a group, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, braveheart was a terrorist, oh noes, he had good motives... Making the two terms interchangable, like you did, is a little... how do I put this... nausiating.
Post by
chase123
1) It wasn't a Muslim that blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.
2) I was in the US Military, and I remember back in 1945 when the United States dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan killing mostly civilians (see Harry Truman).
fix'd
Post by
Adamsm
1) It wasn't a group of tie wearing mormons on those planes.
2) I was in the US Military, and I don't remember strapping C4 on myself to blow up any civilians, or teaching children how to do so (see Yassir Arafat).That is true. And I'm sure you didn't mytie... but you can't say the same for those who pressed the buttons to fire the 'smart-bombs' that hit the civilian targets instead of so-called threats.
In that case? Yes, it's their lands, the Western armies are seen as invaders because they come in,
bad thing they killed off that dictator. surely it was better before, when it was basically a murderous royal famiy that reigned the land.
they are giving the people a chance to live in peace. if they don't like democratic governments and have a better suggestion to make, why is no one presenting it? i guess it's just their best guess to try and make the country democratic.
I love that, 'kill off the dictator' that the US helped put in place, and now the US is trying to set up a puppet goverment to make sure they get first dibs on all that american oil which is somehow under the iraqi sands.
building up infrastructure and helping to form a government is giving help in my book. please read the news.Ideas are free, but are they actually giving money to rebuild the shattered and destroyed homes/businesses and the like destroyed during the war with the "Iraqi terrorist" enemies? And as for the news comment... you mean the american news, where everything is okay and those aren't really the bodies of good men and women being sent home every day or the real news?
i mean, one of the two has to be wrong. please decide which side you support.I supports people right to live in peace, and not have some overblown country who thinks they know what is right and wrong, come over and screw up their lives. Yes, the so-called War in Iraq has done some good... but considering the death toll on both sides, it sure as hell ain't a good thing.
But it's to be expected; I guess all the flack that the Americans took during the 1st and 2nd World Wars has them itching to prove themselves that they ain't the privateers they were; after all, until the sinking of Queen's Anne and Pearl Harbor, the Americans were fine selling supplies and weapons to both the Axis and the Allies.
And before anyone says anything, I'm a proud Canadian, and I support the troops and the like, but I don't support senseless deaths and violence for idiotic reasons like oil and money.
Post by
MyTie
1) It wasn't a group of tie wearing mormons on those planes.
2) I was in the US Military, and I don't remember strapping C4 on myself to blow up any civilians, or teaching children how to do so (see Yassir Arafat).That is true. And I'm sure you didn't mytie... but you can't say the same for those who pressed the buttons to fire the 'smart-bombs' that hit the civilian targets instead of so-called threats.I can say the same for them. In the rare circumstances that civilians are killed by the US Military, it is either in unintentional error, or by in extremely rare cases, individuals acting on their own. Comparing the US Military to terrorists is heinous. It's one of the reason I stopped serving the country. I got tired of being insulted. 6 years of my prime, gone. Thousands of others still giving. I feel for the officer that has to make the hard decisions, that sometimes go wrong, but still have to be made. I wouldn't do it. If it were up to me, people of this mentality can fend for themselves.
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