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Lady Proudmoore - Delusional or intuitive?
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Post by
Adamsm
not suspecting that the horde could have been the ones behind it for some part....
They weren't, they merely took a man with amenisa and no solid connection to anyone prisoner. Don't forget, without Jaina, Varian would never have gotten his memory back. And you think it's a traitor thing for her to save Varian from going 3-1 against Thrall, Sylvanas and the approaching Saurfang?
And yes, she tried to head off the trouble at Secrets of Ulduar, which was a good choice. After all, if the Kirin Tor had been forced to step in, I could see both Varian and Garrosh taking the long way to the ground in Crystalsong forest.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Alright, gimme a little bit to get my research together... (looking for WC3 TFT quotes, and youtube does not seem to have the parts I'm looking for...) and then I'll edit this one.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Go for it Skreeran.
I'll just add one small thing to this:
My eyes have turned to Varian now. Jaina has failed the Alliance, and betrayed humanity.
<Removed. Do not name call in that manner. It's considered flaming. —MasterOfDisguise>
Yes, the name calling came into it, its the short hand version of what I would have said anyway.
Post by
Skreeran
Jaina handeled this like a weak leader; she could have talked him out of it, or stood up to him, but only a brainless leader lets a former enemy purge your city.She tried, Daelin wouldn'y listen, calling her naive.
Daelin: Jaina. Bless the stars, I've found you at last! When I that Lordaeron fell, I despaired. But I knew you'd find a way to escape. I... what is this? An ogre?
Jaina: Father wait!
Rexxar: Father?
Jaina: The Horde are no longer our enemies!
Daelin: You have always been naive, my daughter. You aren't old enough to remember what these monsters did to our homeland. The orcs and their kin cannot be trusted. They must be exterminated like the mongrels they are!
Jaina: I won't let you do it father, you don't understand! *Jaina summons water elemental*
Daelin: I understand more than you suspect, my daughter, seize them all!
Now, not that Jaina is not too young. She's about the same age as Arthas, and he was 9 (or 7, I'm not sure) when Lothar came from Stormwind to start the Alliance. Add that to the long standing hatred that was built up even after the orcs were defeated (the humans didn't just pretend they didn't exist, they all hated the orcs), and she definitely knew what the orcs did.
She didn't really have much to do... She could...
1. Betray her father personally, trying to rally the ones who would fight him together to deal with Daelin's much larger army and hope that he didn't just have her arrested for treason.
2. Side with her father against her morals and better judgement, with both her and her people being killed by the Horde in the process or...
3. Stand by and let the Horde take it's own justice, doing her best to keep her people safe.
I also noticed how although there where many quests on the Horde's side involving attacking the Alliance, Jaina did not care, she has not done anything interesting... she even put the serch for Varian on hold...Well, Theramore has done it's share of Horde fighting. They killed several spies that were infiltrating the city, for one. But the biggest problem is that if they make Orgrimmar angry, it can come down and burn Theramore to the ground, so they try to keep the peace. As for Varian, she didn't give up. We, the players, just didn't get to participate in the search any more.
not suspecting that the horde could have been the ones behind it for some part....They weren't behind it, for one. And two, how do you know she didn't suspect it? She could very well have simply not deemed it likely enough to continue that lead (they learned it was the defias, after all).
When I played the Battle for the undercity chain quest, I slowly decided that I hate Jaina. She completly ignored the Forsaken's attack on humanity, and took action against Varian for demanding justice.She didn't ignore the Forsaken attack. She took a rational stance, investigating the truth rather than jumping to conclusions. And by the way, in my research, I discovered Varian planned to conquer the Undercity before he even saw the Forsaken experiments...
They have lost the Undercity? Then the time to strike is now. We will deal with Putress ourselves and retake the Ruins of Lordaeron for the Alliance!
Compare that to Thrall's:
Tell your king that we will do everything in our power to bring the perpetrators of this cowardly act to justice. We will do all that we can to avoid conflict with the Alliance, but we will not hesitate to defend ourselves if provoked.
And then you mention taking action against Varian, well trust me when I say this: She saved Varian's life there. He would have died.
Her eyes have been completly blind on the threat the Horde could pose, and all the attacks on the Alliance.What attacks? The Wrathgate was really the only attack before Varian declared war. I mean, you have the battlegrounds, but those are more open conflicts than the Horde betraying the Alliance.
My eyes have turned to Varian now. Jaina has failed the Alliance, and betrayed humanity.Jaina saved humanity. Without her, we'd all be demon food now.
Post by
Patty
Jaina isn't a traitor.
If she ever declared war on the Horde, Theramore would be steamrolled to the ground before the Night Elves got out of their trees or the Draenei from their spaceship.
Over 10,000 innocent lives wasted, for what? Revenge to a threat which has apologised, and tries to flesh out an existance? Narrow-minded xenophobia, like her father?
Also, quit the insults....for the <x> time.
Post by
166613
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Please notice that King Wrynn, hardly a sympathizer to the Horde, does not even comment on Proudmore's actions or stance. Bad writing, or is Varian a canny enough leader to see that Jaina Proudmore has few options if she and her people are to survive? (And that losing Theramore would not be good for the Alliance...)Exactly, after all, who does Varian travel to the Argent Tourney grounds with? Jaina. Who helped him(and saved his arse) at the Battle for Undercity? Jaina. She isn't a traitor, she's a good leader, one more focused on keeping her allies alive and well. And like I said before, without Jaina, Varian would either be Dead or an Amensiaic still.
((also, 5000th post heh.))
Post by
451455
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Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Invalied, Jaina should have fought beside him, and I seriuosly doubt that Thrall would not spare his life if he lost. Plus, Varian took more knights then Thrall did grunts. We could have possibly won. And Saurfang came because Jaina opend a portal for him.... and dont say somthing stupied like "oh saurfang
just so u know, the horde DOES has mages dude.
just cuz u see a portal doesn't mean "jaina opened it".
it was horde mages who opened portals for the horde to reach undercity, and it was horde mages who opened portals for saurfang to reach undercity.
if u had played a horde toon u would know this ,because on warsong hold, when u deliver saurfang's junior armor to his father, a portal opens up to go to oggrimar, and who opened that portal? was it jaina? nope, it was a horde mage.
remember that we got silvermoon, wich is probably the second most powerfull magic society in the world (only dalaran is above them in terms of magic dominion. and even then a high number of dalaran is made of elves, high or bloody) so yhea we got plenty of mages to go arround (in the dark portal in outland u can see several forsaken mages helping in the fight at the stairs of destiny, and 2 blood-elven magisters (mages) keeping a portal open to ogrimar)
so, Thrall=most powerfull shaman in the world, capable of destroying necropolis in 1 hit+Saurfang=most powerfull warrior on the world, who led the might of kalimdor and has the highest body-count ever imaginable+Sylvannas windrunner=most skilled archer in the world who can also possess plp, against Varian=good warrior, but nothing that impresive, jaina=powerfull mage, but we know she woudn't had joined the fight at all, and a bunch of knights who would had fallen to the first saurfang cleave or sylvannas possession.
so your "we could had posibly won" theory goes down the drain, don't forget also that the undercity was surrounded by orc soldiers (again play a horde toon, the grunts weren't with thrall at the throne room they were moping up the remnants of hte rebels in the rest of the city)
and the Horde would be destroyed eventually. We could have won if Jaina followed Daelin.
/rollseyes, keep dreaming.
a nation of a few marines vs a full warrior city that's backed up by thunderbluff to the east.
easyly by land ogrimar and thunderbluff would had set up a blockade to prevent reinforcement from the night-elves (wich were not part of the alliance at that point) or the draenei (wich didnt' even arrived to azeroth at that point) and who would had come to the aid of theramoore? ironforge? they don't even have a proper navy, Stormwind? too busy dancing in katrana's lap.
face reality, if jaina had stood next to her father, she would had died, and most importantly, her people would had died.
Well no duh, its human territory
nope, is forsaken territory, the undead came, infected the people of lordaeron wiht a plage, made them undead, but then they broke free of their grip, now they have taken their lands, and lets face it.
out of all the population of lordaeron 60% became the forsaken, 30% joined the scarlet crusade, and 10% LEAVED, the lands.
when they left they renounced to their claim on the land, those who remained paid a dear price for doing so, and they have the right to keep those lands.
who is stormwind to decide if the forsaken deserve or not those lands? the forsaken was there first, just because a small minority of plp left and survived doesn't make them more worthy of the kingdom than those who chose to remain there.
Im done arguing about this
there it is again, when u can't prove your facts u dismiss your debaters.
/sigh
Post by
Skreeran
"If it was not for Jaina; Thrall, Sylvanas, and Saurfang would kill him."
Invalied, Jaina should have fought beside him, and I seriuosly doubt that Thrall would not spare his life if he lost. Plus, Varian took more knights then Thrall did grunts. We could have possibly won. And Saurfang came because Jaina opend a portal for him.... and dont say somthing stupied like "oh saurfang could have just cleaved open a portal blah blah blah..." I am being serious here.Jaina did not open a portal for Saurfang. She was long gone by the time he got there. Besides, Jaina is supposed to fight Thrall, her ally and friend because Varian says so? Maybe if she was a citizen of Stormwind, but she's not. She's the ruler of Theramore, and she's allowed to make her own decisions. And her decision to teleport Varian away probably saved his life.
"Daelin ignored Jaina and refused to belive her"
I already said Admiral Proudmoore is wrong. And Jaina hardly tried, she just ran into her room crying hoping this conflict would solve itself, like she always does. Daelin watched his son die at the hands of the orcs, he is not going to belive they changed so easily, she should have given this whole thing more effort.What else could she have said? She already said that the Horde had changed and that she couldn't let him fight them. Had she not teleported away, she would have been restrained (as Daelin commanded) and even more useless.
"If Jaina stood by her father, Theramore would be destroyed"
If she excuted Rexxar and Rokaun, then Thrall's allys would never have been enformed, Chen would have never met Rexxar, Rexxar could not lead most of the attacks towards victroy, and the Horde would be destroyed eventually. We could have won if Jaina followed Daelin.Okay, so if she had killed two innocent Horde ambassadors looking into attacks on their people, she would have won? First of all... Why? Why should she have done that? So that her father could be successful in slaughtering the orc race? I thought you just said Admiral Proudmoore was wrong? Second, even if Rexxar and Rokhan were killed, Orgrimmar would still have won. Proumoore had an armada, but Orgrimmar had a massive land army and could go all Durnholde on Theramoore, destroying the Alliance's only port in addition to removing it of its last land base. Follow that up with aerial attacks (Rexxar, Rokhan and a few batriders were hugely successful in their attacks from the sky) and Proudmoore's fleet is sunk.
"Horde was not responsible for Varian's kiddnapping."
If that were true, he would have been back a lot sooner. Horde kiddnapped him after he escaped, thus he was kiddnapped twice, one by the Horde.They were wrong, yes, but that wasn't exactly a Horde supported thing. The Alliance had their own slave trade, the goblins had theirs... And then you have to consider the fact that the Defias were behind most of it. If you think about it, had it not been for Rehgar, the Defias might have found him and finished the job. Remember, they had divers and pirates scouring that coast, and if they could overpower him once, they could logically do it again.
"I suspect Varian wanted to conquer Undercity even before the experimentation"
Well no duh, its human territory.
And stop saying "Stormwind has no claim to it", I am just going to keep say "Sylvanas has no claim to it". Lots of Lordaeron humans live in Stormwind; thats why the population stands out.Actually, the humans whose territory it is are dead. Undead. It's the Forsaken whose land it is, and they chose Sylvanas as their leader. As far as Lordaeron humans in Stormwind, there are some, but it was the Forsaken that drove out the Legion and the Scourge, so they were the ones who will hold it, because it's their land after all.
Post by
Patty
Invalied, Jaina should have fought beside him, and I seriuosly doubt that Thrall would not spare his life if he lost. Plus, Varian took more knights then Thrall did grunts. We could have possibly won. And Saurfang came because Jaina opend a portal for him.... and dont say somthing stupied like "oh saurfang could have just cleaved open a portal blah blah blah..." I am being serious here.
Opened a portal from Orgrimmar while she was in Undercity?
The Horde have Mages too, you know. It is Troll mages keeping the portal to UC open, not Jaina.
Daelin watched his son die at the hands of the orcs, he is not going to belive they changed so easily, she should have given this whole thing more effort.
So Jaina never lost a brother, right?
We could have won if Jaina followed Daelin.
....But you just agreed Daelin was wrong.
Well no duh, its human territory.
And stop saying "Stormwind has no claim to it", I am just going to keep say "Sylvanas has no claim to it". Lots of Lordaeron humans live in Stormwind; thats why the population stands out.The majority of the Forsaken are Lordaeron humans, and outnumber the human survivors. Those in Stormwind probably gave up on Lordaeron before the Scourge fully took over, similar to the remaining High Elves.
Hillsbrad, attacking dwarven camp sites (the taruen attacked with out trying peace), attacks on Theramore settelments, ambushs in Northrend, assassination of the Prince of Stromgarde, experiments on sleeping druids, experimented draenei in swamp of sarrows and falcon watch, captured human in Stonard, captured citizens in Undercity, captured dwarf in brill, and deaths of Alliance Dalaran mages.... to name a few.
I'll flip the coin. Dwarf excavations in Barrens and (I think) Mulgore, killing Tauren. Night Elves attacking Orc workers in Ashenvale. Humans attacking Forsaken in Hillsbrad, Dwarves robbing Forsaken, Dwarves spying on Silvermoon, Night Elves spying on Blood Elves. Remainder of Tirigarde keep etc.
Both sides are as bad as eachother. Stop trying to make out that the Alliance are Saints and the Horde are evil savages. This isn't the Second war anymore.
Post by
Adamsm
"If it was not for Jaina; Thrall, Sylvanas, and Saurfang would kill him."
Invalied, Jaina should have fought beside him, and I seriuosly doubt that Thrall would not spare his life if he lost. Plus, Varian took more knights then Thrall did grunts. We could have possibly won. And Saurfang came because Jaina opend a portal for him.... and dont say somthing stupied like "oh saurfang could have just cleaved open a portal blah blah blah..." I am being serious here.
Horde have their own mages, same as everyone else. And while Thrall might have let Varian live, Sylvanas and Saurfang would have been trying to kill him. Sorry Dark, a few extra Knights, most of who die in the sewers as you race towards Putriss, wouldn't have helped that much, as your up against an Undead with the skills of a master archer, a Veteran of 4 Wars, and a guy who the World listens too.... yeah that's a wtfpwn situtation if I ever heard one.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
she is a terrible leader, and I will never change my mind on that.That is called being close minded. If you will not give evidence supporting your beliefs, and you will not accept what others have to say, then you cannot expect your opinions to be valued or considered by anyone but yourself.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
But we've unraveled all the logic you used for hating Proudmoore, or at least that is what it would appear, as you still haven't rebutted our counter-arguments.
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