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Warriors V Paladins: Tanking
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Post by
blademeld
But it's true that thunder clap does an AoE attack speed debuff, which is nice. It doesn't slow mobs though, that was removed ages ago (Edit: Hmm, did it ever? Think it's only mobs that have it... Just like their shield slams can stun).
That's probably where I got confused, since there are mobs with TC that slows.
Oh well, I'd still pay more than 3 talent points for the nerfed version if I had the choice.
Whereas any paladin would pay several points for something like vigilance. I think it's more of a "you have this and we have this" scenario.
In early tiers, it puts warriors ahead while in later tiers it puts us far behind.
Where there was a huge hp gap in tBC with paladins several thousand below warriors in Kara and overtaking warriors around Sunwell, I just don't see that in Wrath.
Post by
Sakkura
Well I'm seeing ToTC paladins up around 40k unbuffed health, while similar geared warriors are maybe a couple thousand behind. It seems to me the gap is starting to appear.
As for vigilance... Yeah it's a lot of bang for your buck, but it really feels wrong to get threat that way. And the taunt refresh thing is stupid anyway, especially with the diminishing returns on taunts. Also, if paladins have the equivalent threat rolled into other talents and abilities (eg. righteous fury), what's the problem? Even more so, if you get some of that threat via abilities doing damage, it means you get more damage for similar threat. Which is a good thing, not a bad thing.
I only rarely tank alongside paladins (almost always druids and/or DKs in my guild), so I can't say for sure how the DPS situation looks between us.
Post by
hashmel
the warrior stamina coefficient is 106%, the pally coefficient is 114.48%, pretty noticeable gap
let's say 3k stam
warrior = 3000 * 1.06 = 3180 stamina = 31800 health unbuffed = 34980 with kings
pally = 3000 * 1.1448 = 3434.4 stamina = 34344 health unbuffed = 37778.4 with kings
pally threat coefficients = 1.43 physical damage, 2.717 holy damage (3.2.2 will change this to 2.574)
(the only physical damage a prot pally deals is from auto attacks)
defensive stance/frost presence/bear form threat coefficients = 2.0735 all damage
bored of this for now, may come back to it
Post by
Sakkura
Latest patch notes say they're
doubling
the chance of critical block. That's definitely going to make warriors mitigate more damage with block than paladins. Still less reliable of course, but certainly quite a buff there.
Post by
blademeld
defensive stance/frost presence/bear form threat coefficients = 2.0735 all damage
Warriors and Death Knights also have "High threat" abilities
Heroic Stike, Rune Strike, Thunderclap and Death and Decay.
Post by
blademeld
Well I'm seeing ToTC paladins up around 40k unbuffed health, while similar geared warriors are maybe a couple thousand behind. It seems to me the gap is starting to appear.
I did several checks on what you've commented, you're right, there are about a gap of 1-3k, but at the same time, warriors have 2-4% more avoidance (before diminishing returns) and more mitagation (5-10% more block)
That's about 100-200 rating on avoidance/mitigation, or enough points to make it up in stamina.
Post by
Salami
I do feel like i'm always outdone by paladins as a warrior, and blizz arn't making any steps to change this.
But i would rarther play a warrior than a paladin any day, people often have more respect for me than my friend just because they see paladins as retarded facerollers, the huge paladin buff has made them the new huntard in many peoples eyes.
Post by
307114
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Okay, I'm going to go all-out honest. Paladins have an easier time achieving their DPS/TPS potential. They have a few high-damage abilities they burn into cooldown and then have some dead-time, by creative use of the /castrandom macro command, you can essentially narrow down your threat rotation to very little effort. Trying to do the same with a Warrior will screw you. But Warriors do have the potential to do equal and probably more damage/threat.
There is probably some gear aspect, as back when I did Naxx-10 I was constantly out-threated by a Paladin tank. Now, in Ulduar-10 and ToC-10, they suddenly seem to produce less threat than my Hunter friend (Yes, Righteous Fury is on).
Trust me, stick with your Warrior, you won't regret it in the long run.
/castrandom was ditched a long time ago.
and
Paladins have no dead time.
Post by
Squishalot
the warrior stamina coefficient is 106%, the pally coefficient is 114.48%, pretty noticeable gap
...
bored of this for now, may come back to it
While you're at it, did you want to check the mitigation coefficient? Try adding up all the 'takes reduced damage' talents and whatnot. Untalented, I believe Warriors start 10% ahead.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
the warrior stamina coefficient is 106%, the pally coefficient is 114.48%, pretty noticeable gap
...
bored of this for now, may come back to it
While you're at it, did you want to check the mitigation coefficient? Try adding up all the 'takes reduced damage' talents and whatnot. Untalented, I believe Warriors start 10% ahead.
Warriors have 10% from stance, plus another 6% spell reduction from talents. That makes 10% melee reduction and 16.6% spell reduction (correct me if I'm wrong).
Paladins have 6% + 3% + 3% +3% (talent, talent, BoS, glyph), plus another 3% spell. That comes out to 15.8% and 19.3% respectively.
Edit: I know you said untalented, but since the stam coefficient is from talents it's only fair this be too.
Post by
Sakkura
Comparing untalented properties makes no sense, since any half serious tank specs for it. At the higher gear level, paladins have more health and a greater total damage reduction, as well as ardent defender increasing effective health further AND providing an automatic panic button on a shorter cooldown than the warrior equivalent (unless the warrior ALSO uses a glyph slot on it).
Paladins do seem clear winners in terms of ability to stay alive, even more so in the hands of less skilled players. I could live with the auto-panic button for paladins (since they are the "hands-off" tank in many ways), but the effective health gap should be reduced. Not that it's terribly important right now, but I would like to be more competitive when icecrown rolls around.
Post by
hashmel
PASSIVE
(PDR = Physical Damage Reduction...SDR = Spell Damage Reduction)
Paladin
PDR =
0.94
*
0.97
*
0.97
=
88.4446%
SDR =
0.94
*
0.97
*
0.97
*
0.94
=
83.137924%
Warrior
PDR =
0.90
=
90%
SDR =
0.90
*
0.94
=
84.6%
COOLDOWNS
Paladin
PDR = 0.884446 *
0.50
=
44.2223%
SDR = 0.83137934 *
0.50
=
41.568962%
Warrior
PDR = 0.90 *
0.40
=
36%
SDR = 0.846 *
0.40
=
33.84%
unfortunately the glyph is a must so while pallies pick from the "Needs more balancing bin" warriors are all about trade offs
(glyphed) PDR = 0.90 *
0.60
=
54%
(glyphed) SDR = 0.846 *
0.60
=
50.76%
Warriors have more interrupts but the tank's job isn't to interrupt and isn't always needed, a rogue or mage can do that anyway.
The Ardent Defender change to a psudo cheat death last stand mechanic was completely unwarrented, pallies don't get a last stand or enraged regeneration but in exchange they are able to self heal, can become completely immune, and have an instant full heal which even by itself is more powerful than frenzied regeneration+survival instincts. (both glyphed)
to touch on the threat issue i mentioned in my earlier post
THREAT COEFFICIENTS
Paladin
=
1.43%
physical damage,
2.574%
holy damage
(the only physical damage a prot pally deals is from auto attacks)
Warrior/Death Knight/Bear
=
2.0735%
all damage
while the other 3 do in fact have a few abilities with some added +threat they also suffer from the target's armor, paladin threat ignores all armor while dealing higher threat per point of damage.
Paladins have no worry of parry gibbing as they deal virtually no physical damage and can in fact completely ignore undoubtedly
the most important
threat stat while every other tank has to live with it.
Looking strictly at pally vs warrior, paladins have a higher stamina multiplier, higher physical and spell damage mitigation both passive and through cooldowns, higher threat mulitpliers, higher dps output as a tank, and superior cooldowns for survival (both in the sense of effectiveness and quantity).
told you i might come back to it when I'm not bored
Post by
Squishalot
*cough* ok, you want to talk about cooldowns?
Shield Block
- Max block, with double BV (which is
doubled again 60% of the time
). You can only keep this up 25% of the time, but unlike Holy Shield, it stays up, permanently, without being ruined by big pulls or hordes of adds.
I'll concede I was wrong about the direct mitigation - I had actually assumed there was more in there. But if you look at the talent trees, it's plainly obvious that Warriors are intended to be block tanks. The problem is that people have been turning tanks of all sorts into avoidance tanks, which reduces the use of a lot of a Warrior's talents.
I don't think it's right to compare a Paladin and a Warrior tank, when you (and the rest of the world) are asking them to do things that they're not designed to do. Before the OP Ardent Defender (which, as blademeld pointed out, is likely to be nerfed soon), Paladins were esentially useless for tanking heavy hitting bosses who would skip their AD damage reduction. That's just life - they were relegated to other roles. Block tanks were sunk for the same reason. Unfortunately, Warriors are (supposed to be) block tanks.
If you don't like it, then wait for the buff like the Paladins did. Reroll DK. Wait two expansion packs for your class to become reasonably viable in *any* raid role, and see how much sympathy you have for anyone else.
It's not really right to compare point for point, talent for talent, skill for skill, between Warriors and Paladins. They both have abilities that make them more suited to different occasions. Learn to play them in those occasions. Just like you don't have Paladins on raid-heals, accept the fact that different tanks will have different roles.
Post by
Porcell
*cough* ok, you want to talk about cooldowns?
Shield Block
- Max block, with double BV (which is
doubled again 60% of the time
). You can only keep this up 25% of the time, but unlike Holy Shield, it stays up, permanently, without being ruined by big pulls or hordes of adds.
So there's two situations here then. One is the big pulls with hordes of adds. You can block 8 attacks every 8 seconds, forever. We can block any number of attacks for 10 seconds, and then back to taking normal hits for 30 seconds. On a boss, every attack that gets passed your avoidance is going to be a block. Warriors? Around a 30% chance to take a normal hit (the 75% of the time that shield block is not on). I'll take Holy Shield mechanics over Shield Block any day.
it's plainly obvious that Warriors are intended to be block tanks. The problem is that people have been turning tanks of all sorts into avoidance tanks, which reduces the use of a lot of a Warrior's talents.
It's plainly obvious in the sense that Warriors and Paladins are the only two classes that use a shield; yes, we are "block tanks." Now, if only blocking mechanics were actually, well, you know... good.
Post by
blademeld
It's plainly obvious in the sense that Warriors and Paladins are the only two classes that use a shield; yes, we are "block tanks." Now, if only blocking mechanics were actually, well, you know... good.
As I have previously demonstrated, ability for ability paladins have better block mechanics.
As Sakkura mentioned, warriors have better mitigation through blocks, why? because they have more abilities to deal with block. I've dont the math before as well several months ago.
I'm thinking this is the reason why warriors have less mitigation.
while the other 3 do in fact have a few abilities with some added +threat they also suffer from the target's armor, paladin threat ignores all armor while dealing higher threat per point of damage.
But your "higher threat" abilities are a normal part of your tanking abilities, so I don't really see an issue here. I mean devastate, heroic strike and thunder clap are used very often for warrior tanking imo.
Post by
Sakkura
As I have previously demonstrated, ability for ability paladins have better block mechanics.
As Sakkura mentioned, warriors have better mitigation through blocks, why? because they have more abilities to deal with block. I've dont the math before as well several months ago.
I'm thinking this is the reason why warriors have less mitigation.
Yeah... But the problem is that block doesn't really work at the moment. At least not the way it is implemented for warriors; for paladins, it is reliable because you can maintain a 0% risk of taking an unblocked hit when tanking a boss, and thus include block value in your effective health. Warriors cannot do that, and mitigating some more damage with block is FAR less valuable. Then paladins ALSO get extra damage reduction plus an automagic panic button on top, which simply means that it is far harder for a boss to kill a paladin tank than an equivalently geared warrior tank.
If/when block becomes better AND healer mana becomes important as well as merely healer GCDs, then our block abilities and talents may compete very well against those of paladins; but right now, we are clearly getting the short end of the stick.
Post by
Sakkura
But your "higher threat" abilities are a normal part of your tanking abilities, so I don't really see an issue here. I mean devastate, heroic strike and thunder clap are used very often for warrior tanking imo.
Thunder clap is not used for single target tanking, except in the rare circumstance where no other 20% attack speed debuff is available.
Post by
blademeld
I don't think it's that rare to have 2 warrior tanks in 25 mans especially looking at my guild runs and the world firsts for guilds like Ensidia, and you can include blocked damage in EH by averaging out the damage blocked.
I think being able to mitigate more damage when needed is slightly better than a constant less reduction, but I think that might be due to the fact that warriors need to watch what they're pressing whereas paladins don't have dead time or variances in rotations, hence, different desires caused from the want of deviation from the current playstyles.
Post by
Sakkura
I don't think it's that rare to have 2 warrior tanks in 25 mans especially looking at my guild runs and the world firsts for guilds like Ensidia, and you can include blocked damage in EH by averaging out the damage blocked.
I think being able to mitigate more damage when needed is slightly better than a constant less reduction, but I think that might be due to the fact that warriors need to watch what they're pressing whereas paladins don't have dead time or variances in rotations, hence, different desires caused from the want of deviation from the current playstyles.
Over half of all progression bosses in WoW history were downed with warrior MT(s). But that's because for several years, warriors were
the
tank in WoW, by design. All those skilled and experienced warrior tanks aren't just going to disappear overnight just because other tank classes become available/viable. Excepting the very best guilds, all guilds to an extent have to take what they can get; do you take one of the twelve experienced, skilled and geared warrior tanks, or the one paladin who specced prot after a ret nerf?
By the way, you seem to be suggesting that warriors can control when we want to block. We can't; paladins can. Critical block is a completely random proc, and shield block is a part of our threat rotation. Warriors cannot get to the block cap without sacrificing too much; paladins can. Taking less damage overall, but in an unreliable and spiky way, is the perfect recipe for tank deaths out of nowhere. And right now, tank deaths are the only problem we deal with on the survivability front, since healers do not run out of mana. IF mana became more of an issue, then it is entirely true that warriors blocking more damage would be an advantage over paladins. The game just doesn't work that way at the moment.
Also, remember that paladins still have the higher flat damage reduction which is constantly up, along with more stamina and added EH from ardent defender (not the heal, though that is very nice too). Like I said, killing a warrior tank is just a lot easier. Not enough to make a warrior MT a major liability on non-heroic raids though, and probably (hopefully) not much of a liability on most heroic raid bosses either.
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