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Varian tried, or at least threatened, to kill a child. Is he consumed with revenge?
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Post by
taurenmoo812
Nope, its gonna be: Obviously you thought that post out, your logic is clearly superior to all of ours
Did I give the assumption it was? This is my own opinion based on my take on it, the same as yours would be. If I disagree with you and you disagree with me, thats just it, nothing more to it.
My take on it was saying Wrynns own son showed more foreright to diplomacy then his own father did, and when faced with the situation of Med'an, it shows why is son would even stand against his fathers eratic behavour.
Being facetious doesn't add to the subject matter.
Post by
Adamsm
My take on it was saying Wrynns own son showed more foreright to diplomacy then his own father did, and when faced with the situation of Med'an, it shows why is son would even stand against his fathers eratic behavour. Auduin has seen a lot it's true, but he is naive to the world as it truly stands.... but with a sexy Blood Elf rogue "teaching" him "things" he should come around in no time.
Post by
executorvgk
sorry I was gone for a while.
some people obviously didn't read my whole post when quoting me I was trying to say the most obvious logical and rational solution for Varian would be to attack med'an because from what I see it's an act of self defense from Varians part I'll take it picture by picture
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/cyberman8/WOW18p11.jpg
Varian goes in to kill Garona which is more than justified
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/cyberman8/WOW18p12.jpg
Med'an jumped in and
attacks
Varian though his reasons were jsutified from defending his mother he went after Varian (I don't knwo about you but if a hostile NPC/Horde attacks me while dismounted I won't jsut sit and let him hit me)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/cyberman8/WOW18p13.jpg
Varian shoves Med'an out of the way and does not attack him back. He then is taken on a bat where Varian can't get to him. after he is in the air hanging in the hands of the undead and out of reach of Varian. then Varian says I'm no child killer... which seems like a hallow threat considering he can't harm him at this point.
A few pages later Varian and Jaina talk and Varian does not kill Garona (if someone can post pic would be helpful been a while since I've
read
skimmed through that part of the comic).
From what I can tell all that Varian did was justified
Post by
Adamsm
A few pages later Varian and Jaina talk and Varian does not kill Garona (if someone can post pic would be helpful been a while since I've read skimmed through that part of the comic).
Heh no, he doesnt kill her, but he does make the ultimatium if her son isn't rescued and she gives up all her knowledge he will kill her. They never went through with it as her Uncle Maraad shows up to save her from Death. Also the Bat Rider that kidnap's Med'an is a member of the Twilight Hammer.
Post by
executorvgk
Also the Bat Rider that kidnap's Med'an is a member of the Twilight Hammer.
how is this even relevant point is Varian made a hallow threat since he can in now way harm Med'an for his is alrdy out of his reach
Post by
Adamsm
Because he went from a possible threat, to a complete threat. If your going to add in something about him being picked up, you should know the whole thing. That wasn't a rescue; it was something that made everything worse; not just for Med'an but for his mother as well.
Post by
executorvgk
I'm not saying it was a rescue I'm saying when Varian threatened him he couldn't touch him it doesn't matter if someone rescued him or the lich king himself went and captured him the point i'm making is the threat Varian told him regarding killing a "child" has no real meaning because med'an is no longer able to die by his blade. who captured him is irrelevant
edit: heading to sleep be back and ready to post 2morrow
Post by
Supremacy
And maybe its seen Varian has some level of justification of his hatred towards the Orcs for what happened to him. But since we're on that subject, lets consider what makes him hate the orcs so much, is it because he was made into a slave by a rogue group, and before that suffled around from one place to another, or was it because of what happened to his father at the hands of a mind controlled Garona? (Obviously he didn't know she was controlled like she was)
There are a few articles on why Varian's hatred toward the Horde is or isn't justified. I promise you, this is bigger than the whole slave camp thing.
Justified:
http://www.wow.com/2009/04/26/varian-wrynn-is-right/
Not justified:
http://www.wow.com/2009/05/27/why-varian-wrynn-is-a-fool-and-why-it-may-not-matter/
Post by
taurenmoo812
Most seem to be missing out an important aftermath to these events that happened at Theremore isle, although not related to Varians 'will he, won't he' child killing, its the aftermath, where after all these events, showing it was Garona under a spell, and Mad'en protecting his mother... yet despite all this, Varian used this event as yet another method of blaming Thrall and the horde for his 'attempted assasination', saying it was all planned by the horde.
Regardless if he would have killed Mad'en had he gotten the chance, you can't deny that the alliances leader is an complete narcissist, who can't see further then his own nose.
The good thing about these events though is I picked up respect for his son, seeing how he can see further then his own father.
There's a quote from the movie Princess Mononoke, by Hayao Miyazaki, where the main hero quotes 'I want to see that world though eyes, unclouded by hate'. This is why I only see Varian and Garrosh as fools who, even if you try to justify there actions, doesn't mean they can make right decisions. Characters like Jaina, Thrall, even Varians son Anduin, do not make there choices based on hatred. This is why Varian and Garrosh make for such poor leaders.
Post by
executorvgk
Regardless if he would have killed Mad'en had he gotten the chance, you can't deny that the alliances leader is an complete narcissist, who can't see further then his own nose
That the the point of the attacks also did an old god not help make that the intention I don't know about you but it's kind of hard for an old gods plan to go wrong. He and Cho'gall already had a very clear plan of what would happen. It's kind of like asking Varian not to belive an army of Horde heading torwards him is just going to stop and say hi and leave. you cannot just assume the best of people when evidence both past and present prove otherwise
Post by
Skreeran
Huh? I really don't understand what you're saying. Something about Old Gods and how their plans don't fail and Varian not trusting forty Hordies heading towards him.
Post by
Adamsm
Exactly, It was a set-up from the Beginning, having Twilight Hammer member's of both Factions, plus Garona to sow distrust and hatred among them. Thrall didn't fall for it because he's Thrall, but both Garrosh and Varian saw it for what it was.
As for the Med'an thing, I'm still not sure if he would have killed him or not, after all he hasn't gone through on his request for Garona to be sent to him now that Med'an is safe. If he runs into the spawn of Medivh and Garona again, under peaceful circumstances, I doubt he would try to kill him again.
Post by
166613
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Dralas
I'm basing my defense of Varian based solely on what I've read in this thread; I bought the first collection of Warcraft comics and wasn't impressed.
Varian, in the heat of anger (I submit that confronting the murderer of your father might be a bit stressful) makes a rash, murderous statement. Is is right? No. Is it understandable? Yes.
Varian does not actually carry out his threat to kill Me'dan. (Which would have been an even more heinous act, I agree.)
Is Varian perfect? No. He makes mistakes, over-reacts, and is overly-prone to anger which affects his judgement. That's a far cry from being evil. As for consumed with revenge...it's perfectly human (if wrong) to have Garona stand for all that is evil in the Orc race, in Varian's eyes. (The mind-control defense, although valid in a fantasy setting, is probably invoked a LOT more times than its justified by the facts. How many times have humans probably tried to plead "I didn't mean to do it, but I was mind-controlled!" And how many cases like that has Varian heard? If humans will lie about mind control, then certainly orcs, especially close relatives of those orcs, will do so.)
Bruce, thank you.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I'm basing my defense of Varian based solely on what I've read in this thread; I bought the first collection of Warcraft comics and wasn't impressed.
Varian, in the heat of anger (I submit that confronting the murderer of your father might be a bit stressful) makes a rash, murderous statement. Is is right? No. Is it understandable? Yes.
Varian does not actually carry out his threat to kill Me'dan. (Which would have been an even more heinous act, I agree.)
Is Varian perfect? No. He makes mistakes, over-reacts, and is overly-prone to anger which affects his judgement. That's a far cry from being evil. As for consumed with revenge...it's perfectly human (if wrong) to have Garona stand for all that is evil in the Orc race, in Varian's eyes. (The mind-control defense, although valid in a fantasy setting, is probably invoked a LOT more times than its justified by the facts. How many times have humans probably tried to plead "I didn't mean to do it, but I was mind-controlled!" And how many cases like that has Varian heard? If humans will lie about mind control, then certainly orcs, especially close relatives of those orcs, will do so.)
Most of the orcs in the rise of the horde drank the demon blood willingly, and commited the genocide of the draenei on draenor, under the manipulation of Gul'dan and Kil'jaeden. Does that make them evil? No. Does that make them what they did justified? To them, yes it was. Does that make them extremely stupid for not realising the truth of it all? Yes.
But people are still quick to dismiss this as just stamp all orcs as stupid savages.
As for Garona and Varian thing. Garona commited the acts she did under mind control of others, well Varian's reactions is based purely on himself, his own rage and stupidity.
I'm just fed up of every alliance fan, who got so bored of not having a decent faction leader, so suddenly get given this wannabe orc who acts like a orcish commander from the first war, and just they still try to justify his actions like its a good thing.
You got given a leader who was made to undermine your precious alliance sensibilities, stop trying to turn him into Anduin Lothar, he's more likely to ruin the alliance then do any good for it.
Post by
Dralas
So wait wait wait taurenmoo, basically your saying this is what I seem to be hearing as an example:
A guy kills everyone in your family but you. Later in life, he is captured and they find out he had, lets say a microchip that was put in him volenteerly, in his head that made him do what he did all that time ago. He says he has changed, and that he couldn't control himself.
Are you saying that you wouldn't hold a grudge against the guy? That even though he had killed all of your family, you'll just forgive him? Cause that seems to be the same case with Varian there.
Post by
Adamsm
Most of the orcs in the rise of the horde drank the demon blood willingly, and commited the genocide of the draenei on draenor, under the manipulation of Gul'dan and Kil'jaeden. Does that make them evil? No. Have to disagree there Taurenmoo, but even Doomhammer and Grom admitted drinking the blood and killing the Draenei was evil, and they are doing their best with the current Horde to make up for that.
Yes Garona was controlled, and she was controlled from birth, she was an experiment by the Shadow Council, forcing a draenei woman to mate with an orc male and they began the process when she was still a baby, but very few knew this, again the only reason Med'an, Jaina and Aegwynn could tell was because all of them could see the magic spells cast on her. As far as Varian knew at this point, as he hadn't been told about it, was that she had did everything under her own control.
I'm just fed up of every alliance fan, who got so bored of not having a decent faction leader, so suddenly get given this wannabe orc who acts like a orcish commander from the first war, and just they still try to justify his actions like its a good thing.
You got given a leader who was made to undermine your precious alliance sensibilities, stop trying to turn him into Anduin Lothar, he's more likely to ruin the alliance then do any good for it. So you'd rather have Lady Prestor(you know Onyxia) still running the human kingdoms, doing nothing but letting the chaos keep throwing the world deeper and deeper into ruin and making it easier for the evil in Azeroth to conqueror us all? Yes, Varian is a hot head, yes he's pig-headed, and yes he doesn't forgive easily, but he cares deeply about his people, he does his best to protect his allies, and he knows what must be done to stop the real evils; Old Gods The Scourge and the like, and is willing to do it.
And in no way am I trying to defend his hatred of the Orcs, even if it is justified to him; heck you just gave them another reason; Doomhammer killed Lothar, a man Varian cared about like a father. I'm not going to list those he lost to the Orc's because it wouldn't be fair, espically as few of the Horde leader's are affected the same. Only Thrall comes closest, with Taretha and Doomhammer being killed by humans, but beyond that it isn't the same.
Post by
taurenmoo812
So wait wait wait taurenmoo, basically your saying this is what I seem to be hearing as an example:
A guy kills everyone in your family but you. Later in life, he is captured and they find out he had, lets say a microchip that was put in him volenteerly, in his head that made him do what he did all that time ago. He says he has changed, and that he couldn't control himself.
Are you saying that you wouldn't hold a grudge against the guy? That even though he had killed all of your family, you'll just forgive him? Cause that seems to be the same case with Varian there.
If the person in that SF example was being controlled by another though mind control, then I would seek revenge on the one who used him like a puppet.
Your example, I could easily say do you blame every german who was involved in the second world war, or would you accept many of them were forced to serve in the nazi party against there choice. You know there have been reports and cases of british vets having forgiven men who served under the nazi banner, because they realised these men were forced to either serve, or die.
Post by
Dralas
If the person in that SF example was being controlled by another though mind control, then I would seek revenge on the one who used him like a puppet.
Your example, I could easily say do you blame every german who was involved in the second world war, or would you accept many of them were forced to serve in the nazi party against there choice. You know there have been reports and cases of british vets having forgiven men who served under the nazi banner, because they realised these men were forced to either serve, or die.
"Give me liberty, or give me death"
Post by
executorvgk
I'm just fed up of every alliance fan, who got so bored of not having a decent faction leader, so suddenly get given this wannabe orc who acts like a orcish commander from the first war, and just they still try to justify his actions like its a good thing.
You got given a leader who was made to undermine your precious alliance sensibilities, stop trying to turn him into Anduin Lothar, he's more likely to ruin the alliance then do any good for it.
It's better than having a leader who can't command his own men and lets a rash idiotic brainless red-skinned warmonger who let's his axe think for him push him around and just tell him I expect you not to do that again, or no garosh no!
I don't know about you but having a leader with a very minor anger problem which is justified is much better than ahving an idle king who just watches how much of a threat garrosh is instead of demoting him or mabye something as simple as not taking him to meeting anymore.
then again taurenmoo you and me are both very biased sources favoring our faction
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