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Prot DPS/PVP - Protribution Guide - Updated 3.3!
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Post by
Squishalot
So just some PvP experiences from me....
Ret/Destro - we've gone from a 1-9 win-loss ratio to:
Prot/Destro - a 2-2 win-loss ratio.
Of course, that could just mean we're facing up to the weaker opponents, admittedly. But it does make a difference. Some key notes and considerations:
1) Avenger's Shield requires travel time. So that mage can still be silenced and polymorph you. Therefore - predict when they're about to cast a spell, rather than wait for them to cast if you're closing in and still at range.
2) Pursuit of Justice is mandatory if you don't want to be kited. I'll need to respec, I think.
3) Consecration is a horrible waste of mana in Arena.
4) Hunter/Hunter teams are just waiting to be slaughtered. Really.
5) Protribution kicks the crap out of Prot-Holy when it comes down to a duel. (I killed his mage, he killed my lock, we LoS'd while we regained mana, and then SS'd up and went at it.)
6) Not glyphing Avenger's Shield hampers burst tremendously. But is good for slaughtering Hunter/Hunter teams, especially since the glyph slot was taken up by HotR for PvE trash.
7) Mana really is horrible. Key will be using Divine Plea during combat to maximise uptime, but I found that it was slipping off a fair bit if I was being CC'd and kited.
Post by
bahlak
I have a question for pvping with prot.
What seal and blessing do you guys use?
i usually bg a lot, and i've been using seal of justice and blessing of sanctuary. Not sure on the blessing, but i'm assuming it will be a better choice once 3.2 comes because of the 10% stamina.
Post by
Squishalot
Pure Prot would use Sanctuary for mitigation, Protribution would use Kings for the damage.
Likewise, Seal of Justice for utility, I've been using Seal of Blood for the extra burst damage.
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299926
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Post by
svirve
im a seeing this right? no fury and points in reckoning? no points in JoJ, i guess reducing damage taken is not worth the points?no improv devo arua i mean i guess a paladin doesnt want armor or better healing doen to everyone in the raid? i guess i now know why i see people on my server with messed up talents... might as well get a spell power enchant.
the op needs to edit this to stop BAD info from being spread.
prot dps doesnt matter... prot tps does
Yes indeed you do see it right.
The problem is that you (despite having stated otherwise) still dont get the point of this spec.
Why would we spend points in imp fury when as it is now we're having BIG troubles with threat generation. Cause i'm just assuming you know that you need
Righteous Fury
(made a pretty link so you know what spell we're talking about) to be active for you in order to recieve the benefit from the talent.
AoE damage is a very very common thing in todays raids. And as you can see
here
reckoning will proc from any damaging attack.
Why on earth would we put points in JotJ and sacrifice significant DPS talents in ret?
If your tank doesn't have JotJ/Thunder clap or even if it's not a frost DK you will 99% of the time have someone covering the haste debuff.
Imp devo aura. is very much a situational matter. If you know you barely ever group/raid with a tree or a tankadin sure you can spend points here but it's nice to have them in other talents as well for when you're soloing.
So you're saying that a tank with 1 DPS could tank any raid. Cause i'm (once again) assuming that you know that DPS is directly linked to TPS.
And as stated previously
THIS IS NOT A TANK BUILD IN ANY WAY,
we're here to kick ass and look pretty.
This is an experimental build that is used to do DPS with a 1h and shield. With the gear you're supposed to stack with this build you couldn't even tank heroics.
Before you go off tossing crap like a chimpansee get your facts straight.
Edits: Spelling errors.
Post by
Dragonzero
Likewise, Seal of Justice for utility, I've been using Seal of Blood for the extra burst damage.
yea that what i use both and when i use seal of justice then target to any healer to be stun all the times. >:)
problem is next patch 3.2 going to
remove
seal of blood
........../facepalm
Post by
Squishalot
<everything>
Whee! Welcome back svirve!
To keving, take a step back and try and understand what this spec does. Then come back and suggest a better talent combination that meets the purpose of this spec. No, really. I'm happy to adjust specs on the front page if you can come up with one that's better, we're all experimenting and learning with this.
However, everything that svirve said here is pretty much on the money. But by all means, do try if you like, constructive feedback is good. But be prepared to face the same flaming that you're offering too.
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Post by
svirve
Whee! Welcome back svirve!
Your "Whee" made me laugh harder than rereading my own post this morning ^^
It's good to be back even though i'm going to be on and off like a bouncing bean.
The weather is too great outside and for some wierd reason people like spending time with me (i know it's quite unbelievable ;p).
But i've read this whole thread atleast and will try and keep up with the replys. Cant see anything in your summary i'd comment on though :)
Have you done any work on the spreadsheet? I was thinking of doing some on my vacation but i was too busy not doing anything to do it.
Post by
Squishalot
Pretty much nothing since you left. I've used it for feeding stats and whatnot into it (see the sample gearing in the Wowhead profiler), but not much since.
I figured, we're fairly close to 3.2 now, so we can make all the final changes then. Also, I'm going to start a data collection drive in a new thread to see if I can calculate the average uptime of abilities in a Ret rotation, to feed it in. That's been the biggest problem when comparing Protribution to Ret - no fixed rotation, so it's hard to calculate 'typical' Ret DPS.
I've also headed over to Maintankadin and downloaded Theck's latest Matlab files, and when I get time (which feels like never), I want to try to modify the code to use our Protribution spec and see if our spreadsheet matches up with his program, for validation. It'll also make it easier to calculate stat weightings, since he's got the code all set up nicely.
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Post by
DrvUMad
I have just stumbled across this and the previous failblog posts regarding the prot dps spec.
I have been using this spec for a few months off and on now, mostly for battleground pvp ownage and once in a rare while in a raid. I can attest that in the BGs this is great face smashing fun, especially when dropping 10k-15k crits with SotR. It's very bursty which can be alot of fun!
I've noticed that noone brought up the use of Lavanthor's Talisman. This combined with a Greatness card are the BiS trinkets to use for this build whether you are pve or pvp. Pop wings and the trinket in the same macro after judging a target (read Libram) can give you some HUGE crits.
I'd like to bring up a few points with the next patch that prompted me to switch back to Ret for dps and Prot strictly for tanking:
First:
SotR's damage is reduced to 100% BV down from 130% BV. This means BV from STR will have 30% less impact on SotR damage. BV from items is doubling which ensures TANKS still gain the tps from the ability they had previous to the nerf but prot dps loses ability at the same time.
Second:
Exorcism has a cast time. This can no longer be used in your rotation as prot dps, while Retadins talented with "The Art of War" can.
Third:
SoB/M is gone and SoCom is a far cry from being worth even 1 talent point on the ptr. SoV/C is the new dps seal of choice but mana becomes an issue forcing us to use Seal of Wisdom as well as Judging Wisdom.
Last thought:
I haven't tested this on the ptr yet, but Hand of Reckoning has been changed to actually do damage (50% of AP to be exact) and is on an 8 second cooldown which fits nicely into the 969 rotation filling the Holy Shield gap. If HoR will actually work on players this could make up for our lost SotR dps in theory.
EDIT: I forgot to mention the upcoming Block Value cap. This becomes a huge nerf as well. With my Libram/Trinkets up my current block value is well into the 3000-3500 range. As of next patch this will have a soft cap of 2400 and a hard cap or 2760 thus putting an absolute cap on the damage available from SotR.
Post by
Squishalot
I've noticed that noone brought up the use of Lavanthor's Talisman. This combined with a Greatness card are the BiS trinkets to use for this build whether you are pve or pvp. Pop wings and the trinket in the same macro after judging a target (read Libram) can give you some HUGE crits.
Are the big crits that important? Nice, certainly, but overall damage would be more useful too. In the 'ideal gear' on the front page, I've put Dark Matter, for the passive 222 attack power and chance to increase crit rating.
First:
SotR's damage is reduced to 100% BV down from 130% BV. This means BV from STR will have 30% less impact on SotR damage. BV from items is doubling which ensures TANKS still gain the tps from the ability they had previous to the nerf but prot dps loses ability at the same time.
Do tanks spec for BV nowadays? I thought avoidance was all the rage in Ulduar. Yes, we'll lose a bit of damage from STR, but that just means that we may need to re-weight the gearing. BV was never that big in the calculations anyway - you get more than double from the SoB/M procs, melee and HotR than you do from the extra ShoR damage, and that's with the 130% scaling and no cap.
Second:
Exorcism has a cast time. This can no longer be used in your rotation as prot dps, while Retadins talented with "The Art of War" can.
Are you talking about PvP or PvE? In PvP, it was never part of your rotation. In PvE, your cast time is equal to a global cooldown anyway, so it doesn't interfere with the rotation. It won't be part of a tank's rotation, since you can't block/parry/dodge while casting, but as a DPS, it makes no difference since you're not going to be focused on. Therefore, no change.
Edit: Only change is that you won't get your extra melee strike and SoV proc. At an Ulduar gear level, that'll mean sacrificing 2000 damage from Melee/SoV and getting 4400 damage from Exo. So if you have a spare GCD and Exo is off cooldown, it's still a good trade.
Third:
SoB/M is gone and SoCom is a far cry from being worth even 1 talent point on the ptr. SoV/C is the new dps seal of choice but mana becomes an issue forcing us to use Seal of Wisdom as well as Judging Wisdom.
I don't think that anyone had mana issues in a raid environment anyway. Anyone who does simply glyphs for ShoR and that should solve it. Glyph of SoB/M is a drop in the ocean compared to Divine Plea, Mana Spring Totem/Blessing of Wisdom, and general raid-wide mana recovery. And Spiritual Attunement, if the raid is taking damage.
SoV/C is pretty close anyway. Our SoB/M damage goes down by a third (from 48% scaling to 33% scaling), but we get the ongoing damage from the DoT as well. Ulduar 25 geared, and the proc damage goes down by 170, and the DoT will do a whopping 320 dps (based on 6k AP). Judging on a 5-stack debuff will do about 40% more damage because of the increased damage proc. In PvE, this is a huge buff compared to SoB/M. In PvP, you'd probably want the one point in SoC for the immediate extra damage, without needing to build up the DoT.
Last thought:
I haven't tested this on the ptr yet, but Hand of Reckoning has been changed to actually do damage (50% of AP to be exact) and is on an 8 second cooldown which fits nicely into the 969 rotation filling the Holy Shield gap. If HoR will actually work on players this could make up for our lost SotR dps in theory.
HoR does not work on players. The damage is done once the enemy has been taunted, and not before. It would work well if you need to offtank a boss back and forth, but not at all in PvP.
EDIT: I forgot to mention the upcoming Block Value cap. This becomes a huge nerf as well. With my Libram/Trinkets up my current block value is well into the 3000-3500 range. As of next patch this will have a soft cap of 2400 and a hard cap or 2760 thus putting an absolute cap on the damage available from SotR.
On a max-geared Ulduar geared profile, I've got an estimated base BV of 2127 including 30% from Redoubt, meaning that this build, if geared properly by focusing on Strength (as opposed to stacking BV), won't be impacted by the hard cap (using Libram of the Sacred Shield, instead of Obstruction in PvP for higher BV uptime). At the moment (non crit):
ShoR damage: 3830
HotR damage: 3100
Exo damage: 3090-3270
Consecrate: 3490
Avenger's Shield damage: 3630-4200
ShoR damage is increased if you stack BV too much, but the rest are much higher if you stick to stacking Strength.
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